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BeachSiO2

Beach Fanatic
Jun 16, 2006
3,294
737
That's interesting since you also state that most other beach is undergoing, or being planned for some type of restoration.

Most is not all :D. Here are two examples- WaterSound and Bannerman Beach Lane. Why you ask... healthy beach and dune systems, and good siting.
 

Smiling JOe

SoWal Expert
Nov 18, 2004
31,644
1,773
Just wondered if there was some overlap of beaches which were in the process of restoration which you didn't think needed to be.
 

BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Beach Fanatic
Jun 20, 2005
1,354
401
To consolidate some info, I thought it might help to put out some links I found.

The state is a party to the lawsuit on Walton County's side. They used the solicitor general as their advocate at the Supreme Court Hearing. He is second only behind the Attorney General for the state as far as legislative counsel goes. They didn't use the FDEP Department attorney. Also, the Governor (Crist) gave permission to the Florida Department of Community Affairs Secretary, Tom Pelham to advocate on behalf of Walton County. So the state has definitely "invested" in the case. Here is the link to the Supreme Court case.
http://tinyurl.com/3c4jwh

Here is the report that defines "critically eroded" and I really don't have a good answer about seawalls. http://tinyurl.com/2vch5k

Also of note to some is the new public access bill in Fl. legislature this session. It's HB 1523 by Sasso and has a Senate companion.
http://tinyurl.com/2w4c4y

Great Info!! I'm still digesting all the references even though I've seen the DEP pdf on critical erosion. Which, as you know, contains this definition of critically eroded:

Critically eroded area is a segment of the shoreline where natural processes or human activity have caused or contributed to erosion and recession of the beach or dune system to such a degree that upland development, recreational interests, wildlife habitat, or important cultural resources are threatened or lost. Critically eroded areas may also include peripheral segments or gaps between identified critically eroded areas which, although they may be stable or slightly erosional now, their inclusion is necessary for continuity of management of the coastal system or for the design integrity of adjacent beach management projects.

This definition certainly appears to provide ample latitude with the interpretation of "critically eroded". So I guess if the seawall were to negate the criteria, "upland development...are threatened..." then it seems if the county and state are hell bent on restoring the beach, they could find some other reason such as loss of habitat.


When looking at the DEP map as to which beaches are "critically eroded" in Walton County, it appears to be about 50% of the total coastline. If only this 50% is renourished, would not the coastline eventually equalize as sand moves around during future storms? It seems to me parts of the beach will be getting nourishment benefits but not have to go through the ECL process.

Thanks for the links, responses and civil exchange.
;-):D:D(c)BMBV
 

Busta Hustle

Beach Fanatic
Apr 11, 2007
434
34
To Beach sio2 in regards to the studies of beach erosion at state parks . I believe a major point missing in the study is the idea of the "causes" of erosion being more than just the "wave action meeting with upland structures".

Did the study account for the fact that a major percentage at least half i believe of the cause of the dunes being knock down and completely cut through was the wood and trex debris from the numerous WALKOVERS from as far away as Inlet Beach and all points in between ending up at grayton and western lake. I believe there were over 100 dumpster loads removed from grayton state park and western lake after 04/05...:dunno:
 
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BlueMtnBeachVagrant

Beach Fanatic
Jun 20, 2005
1,354
401
To Beach sio2 in regards to the studies of beach erosion at state parks . I believe a major point missing in the study is the idea of the "causes" of erosion being more than just the "wave action meeting with upland structures".

Did the study account for the fact that a major percentage at least half i believe of the cause of the dunes being knock down and completely cut through was the wood and trex debris from the numerous WALKOVERS from as far away as Inlet Beach and all points in between ending up at grayton and western lake. I believe there were over 100 dumpster loads removed from grayton state park and western lake after 04/05...:dunno:
FWIW, videos taken during hurricane Dennis show the tremendous erosion done by wave action long before the debris came floating by. In other words, the damage from the debris itself is, I believe, minimal. Why do you want to suggest otherwise without any evidence?
 

Smiling JOe

SoWal Expert
Nov 18, 2004
31,644
1,773
I cannot recall for certain, but I believe that GBSP was also a staging area to hold the debris from the beach, until the dumptrucks could haul it away, and that was why so much debris was there.
 

Busta Hustle

Beach Fanatic
Apr 11, 2007
434
34
bmbv: there was plenty of evidence of holes in dunes with massive amounts of wood left sitting right behind, in front of and on top of the dune lines and in the coastal lakes. The state parks will be the only unarmored beaches along 30-a as neighboring adjacent beach fronts from inlet to Miramar armor up. When the seawalls are built the flow naturally bounces off and down to the areas with less resistance. Add this effect to the additional previous effect of lowering adjacent beaches by the scraping and you get the massive reduction in dune height and sand volume. Evidence, yes volumes of evidence. We live on a barrier island for all practical purposes. The nature of that means the rolling towards the mainland from front to back over time and thru storm action. To think the erosion of unprotected areas such as parks will not be accelerated and a be a direct result of the development on adjacent beaches is just silly.
 

BeachSiO2

Beach Fanatic
Jun 16, 2006
3,294
737
To Beach sio2 in regards to the studies of beach erosion at state parks . I believe a major point missing in the study is the idea of the "causes" of erosion being more than just the "wave action meeting with upland structures".

Did the study account for the fact that a major percentage at least half i believe of the cause of the dunes being knock down and completely cut through was the wood and trex debris from the numerous WALKOVERS from as far away as Inlet Beach and all points in between ending up at grayton and western lake. I believe there were over 100 dumpster loads removed from grayton state park and western lake after 04/05...:dunno:

The impact from structures would be minimal in comparison to storm surge and associated waves. Plus it doesn't explain that when comapring 1872-2002 that Topsail Hill State Preserve had the highest erosion rates in Walton County.

FWIW, videos taken during hurricane Dennis show the tremendous erosion done by wave action long before the debris came floating by. In other words, the damage from the debris itself is, I believe, minimal.

I would agree

I cannot recall for certain, but I believe that GBSP was also a staging area to hold the debris from the beach, until the dumptrucks could haul it away, and that was why so much debris was there.

This is correct

bmbv: there was plenty of evidence of holes in dunes with massive amounts of wood left sitting right behind, in front of and on top of the dune lines and in the coastal lakes. The state parks will be the only unarmored beaches along 30-a as neighboring adjacent beach fronts from inlet to Miramar armor up. When the seawalls are built the flow naturally bounces off and down to the areas with less resistance. Add this effect to the additional previous effect of lowering adjacent beaches by the scraping and you get the massive reduction in dune height and sand volume. Evidence, yes volumes of evidence. We live on a barrier island for all practical purposes. The nature of that means the rolling towards the mainland from front to back over time and thru storm action. To think the erosion of unprotected areas such as parks will not be accelerated and a be a direct result of the development on adjacent beaches is just silly.

Your arguing future versus present in regards to seawalls and impacts. Not saying you are wrong as they will have impacts. They just haven't yet.

As for scraping lowering the volume of sand in dunes that's incorrect because the sand that was scraped was put at the base of the dunes so adding sand to a dune will not lower the volume of sand at a dune.

The reason why the debris was deposited at the coastal dune lakes and in the holes is because they were the low spots. The same thing happened in non state park areas like Alligator Lake, Eastern Lake, Camp Creek, etc. The debris didn't discriminate between which lakes were in state parks and which ones weren't.

Finally, in regards to living on a barrier island, that is incorrect. Sowal's underlying geology is a a Pleistocene Mainland complex. In simple terms, barrier islands were formed in the past 14k years during the Holocene Period and since the last low sea level stand. That is the thin layer of white sand that you see that overlays the Pleistocene Mainland. As seen after the hurricanes, the underlying dunes are not white quartz sand. They are iron stained quartz formed from between about 1.5 million years ago and 14,000 years ego. That is the Pleistocene Mainland complex that makes up the majority of sowal.
 

Busta Hustle

Beach Fanatic
Apr 11, 2007
434
34
"for all practical purposes" was part of the living on a barrier island in my statement. i was speaking in regards to the the erosion on our beach fronts being the same as for instance Pensacola Beach/Santa Rosa island.

Beach scrapings adding volume to dunes (wishful thinking) is only true until the next wave washes the softened sand away to a new location. And my point was that adjacent beaches are affected and negatively. When you start at the water line and scrape to the dunes line you lower the beach which allows even smaller waves to rush to the dune base.

Lakes being low spots makes sense as a catchers mitt for debris. And of course the erosion from a 25 foot strorm surge with 20 foot waves on top will be much more destructive than just thousand of pounds of floating debris crashing into the dunes "all by it self." But i would not call the effect of the structues bashing dune tops and middles minimal.

As you mentioned i do believe future erosion in the non fortified natural areas will be accelerated by adjacent beach activities. I was not around in 1872 but in 1952 i can tell you that there were hundreds of higher more majectic dunes from Pensacola to to Mexico Beach and i may be wrong on nature vs. development which knocked down more dunes but my guess would be the big "D".
 
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Andy A

Beach Fanatic
Feb 28, 2007
4,389
1,738
Blue Mountain Beach
And my opinion is that your opinion, Busta Hustle, is incorrect. Look at the area between the end of Marler bridge and Brooks bridge on Okaloosa Island. The dune system along much of the area completely disappeared during OPal. They are just now beginning to return. There is no development anywhere along this stretch of beach. I am against uncontrolled development as much as anybody, but it is far from being the main reason for beach erosion from all I've seen since 1991.
 
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