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NotDeadYet

Beach Fanatic
Jul 7, 2007
1,416
489
Thomas Sowell is a well respected economists and commentator and it is sad that his opinions and thoughts should be dismissed because he is elderly. His life story speaks volumes for his credibility on commenting on Obama's candidacy.

CCKid, please go back and read my post. I did not dismiss Sowell because he is elderly. I very specifically said where he lost me with his thinking. Also, I never mentioned Obama and I am not defending him. For all you know, I may not even support Obama. What I support and am defending is the free exchange of ideas without having my patriotism questioned because I hold certain views on the rights of women and my taste in music may diverge from Mr. Sowell's. :bang:
 

Camp Creek Kid

Christini Zambini
Feb 20, 2005
1,277
125
54
Seacrest Beach
CCKid, please go back and read my post. I did not dismiss Sowell because he is elderly. I very specifically said where he lost me with his thinking. Also, I never mentioned Obama and I am not defending him. For all you know, I may not even support Obama. What I support and am defending is the free exchange of ideas without having my patriotism questioned because I hold certain views on the rights of women and my taste in music may diverge from Mr. Sowell's. :bang:

I'm sorry, but I wasn't commenting on your post at all.
 

GoodWitch58

Beach Fanatic
Oct 10, 2005
4,810
1,923
CCKid: for my part I was agreeing with NDYet, and I particularly disagree with his economics...it is the Milton Friedman take on the economy with which he appears to agree, that IMO, is responsible for where our economy is right now.

Had nothing to do with Obama.
 

Chickpea

Beach Fanatic
Dec 15, 2005
1,151
366
30-A Corridor
This is only a personal opinion (I know both CCK as well as Rapunzel and both are smart and thoughtful ladies...)

For those of you who know my political inclinations it will come as no surprise that I did find Obama's speech powerful and I thought the premise of his speech was legitimate and thoughtful. It is definitely hard for me to grasp, given how poignant and relevant I found his words to be, that fair-minded people would find it hard to accept the realities he spoke of (regardless of whether or not one endorses him as a candidate). He acknowledged truths that frankly span a spectrum of races and was not exclusionary. It is heartening to see that to the younger generation, race will come to matter less and less and that it will hopefully be less divisive and scarring than it has been for previous generations - but let's please not pretend that we are at the stage right now where it does not matter - one need only look at the statistics on education, college entrance, hierarchy in the workforce, % of men in prison, etc, etc... to repudiate any claim to the contrary. And frankly it is always awkward to see politicians dance around the issue and it was surprisingly refreshing to see someone dive head first and bring to the surface some of the raw truths we should deal with as a nation.

Regarding John McCain - I was one of those who probably would have voted for him over Gore in 2000 (if he had won the GOP nomination that is) - I had found him to be truely partisan, utterly capable of reaching across the political divide and listening to different opinions, candid and honest and a man of his convictions, unafraid of standing tall for his beliefs. BUT, my heart sank as I watched him embrace those George W Bush policies that I despise to my very core (like many others my world is not limited to this country and his far reaching foreign policies have been so destructive, arrogant and criminal) that I lost so much of that admiration. His inability to distance himself from the disastrous war will cost him many votes that he may have otherwises been able to take for granted.

Nonetheless, for a while it was truely wonderful to see a woman, an african-american and a hispanic vie for the top job (and fitting that it was all within the democratic party - the republican party with their usual display of older white men looked positively passe (insert accent on the e!!!). It is too bad that it has degenerated BUT I will not lose sight that it has been fascinating and ground breaking to have so many diverse voices heard (about friggin time!!!!!!!)
 
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Chickpea

Beach Fanatic
Dec 15, 2005
1,151
366
30-A Corridor
Chickpea,

Do you feel the United States should be concerned with trying to build democracy abroad?

Walton GOP,
That is way too broad a question to answer simply - should the US be concerned and aid in spreading the virtues of democracy, trying to make sure that as many people on this earth have access to freedom, justice, health, prosperity and a political voice for their future? Absolutely! Should they be invading countries that have done absolutely nothing to them and occupying said country under guise of building democracy - NO!
 

rapunzel

Beach Fanatic
Nov 30, 2005
2,514
980
Point Washington
The above quoted paragraphs are what interested me when I read this essay.

Thomas Sowell is a well respected economists and commentator and it is sad that his opinions and thoughts should be dismissed because he is elderly. His life story speaks volumes for his credibility on commenting on Obama's candidacy.

Sowell broke barriers for Obama. Obama's childhood was nothing like Sowell's who grew up in a very poor, very rural, very black part of North Carolina. If anyone can judge Obama's "search for a cultural identity," it is Sowell. What I can't understand about Obama is why he is so negative about the opportunities available in this country when he, and his wife, have multiple degrees from top Ivy League schools. Obama has had the opportunity to lead the African American youth in this country and to be an example of the GOOD things that can happen through hard work. Instead he is giving kids excuses for why the won't succeed. (And he is also using this same rhetoric to appeal to working-class white voters).

Sowell is rightly concerned about the affect of Obama's rhetoric within the African American community. He is a man who has succeeded in life because he worked hard and overcame obstacles. He feels passionately that success is possible for everyone.

First, beyond the color of their skin, I think Sowell and Obama have virtually nothing in common and I cannot think of why his life story might speak to his credibility in commenting on Obama's candidacy. He is a lifelong conservative, a follower of Milton Friedman, and about as likely to offer an unbiased opinion of Obama as Paul Krugman is to be fair to John McCain.

The things you say about the four paragraphs you quote perfectly illustrates my point about Mr. Sowell's intellectual dishonesty in writing this column. He has married his characterization of Rev. Wright's views -- a characterization based on the four most inflammatory outtakes from 20 years of sermons -- to those of Barack Obama. I have read Sen. Obama's books and heard him speak many times. I feel like I have a very good understanding of Barack Obama's views on race, and I've heard his call for personal responsibility in the African-American community. I know his views, and those of Rev. Wright, have continually emphasized empowerment and personal responsibility. While I have never heard or read Barack Obama say anything that could be construed as "giving kids an excuse for why they won't succeed." While Sowell may have excellent points to make with Rev. Wright, he does not set out to do that. His purpose in writing this column was to obfuscate Obama's views. His aim was to rattle the chains of those who will not read Obama's books or listen to his speeches beyond the snippets analyzed on their preferred news sources. He did an excellent job.

An honest discussion of a candidate's values and record is exactly what this message board is for. I don't know why everyone is so defensive about Obama. I am in no way "tearing down and cutting and pasting." If we can't examine our presidential candidates, then what is the point of even posting on here? Not all of us agree politically, but by discussing these issues, it helps us better define our own political views.

There are some things that I agree with Obama on and there are some things that I disagree with all 3 candidates on. I in no way set John McCain on a pedestal. For me though, McCain is the best, though not perfect, candidate.

McCain is your candidate of choice, and you seem to be very informed regarding your decision. I think posting this article was not about building your candidate up, it was about sharing a negative view of another candidate. The "tearing down and cutting and pasting" referred to what I would have been doing had I posted some of those anti-McCain writings. I welcome a fair discussion and examination of candidates and our political views. I responded with my thoughts on Sowell's article -- I think it lacked substance, but that substance wasn't his purpose.

If the objective is to discuss Barack Obama's views, I suggest that we begin with Barack Obama's words, not Sowell's words on some of Wright's words. So, some pertinent Obama words:

Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze - a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding.

This is where we are right now. It's a racial stalemate we've been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so nave as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy - particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.

But I have asserted a firm conviction - a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people - that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice if we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union.

For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life. But it also means binding our particular grievances - for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs - to the larger aspirations of all Americans -- the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives - by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny.

Ironically, this quintessentially American - and yes, conservative - notion of self-help found frequent expression in Reverend Wright's sermons. But what my former pastor too often failed to understand is that embarking on a program of self-help also requires a belief that society can change.

The profound mistake of Reverend Wright's sermons is not that he spoke about racism in our society. It's that he spoke as if our society was static; as if no progress has been made; as if this country - a country that has made it possible for one of his own members to run for the highest office in the land and build a coalition of white and black; Latino and Asian, rich and poor, young and old -- is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past. But what we know -- what we have seen - is that America can change. That is true genius of this nation. What we have already achieved gives us hope - the audacity to hope - for what we can and must achieve tomorrow.

In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination - and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past - are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds - by investing in our schools and our communities; by enforcing our civil rights laws and ensuring fairness in our criminal justice system; by providing this generation with ladders of opportunity that were unavailable for previous generations. It requires all Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams; that investing in the health, welfare, and education of black and brown and white children will ultimately help all of America prosper.

In the end, then, what is called for is nothing more, and nothing less, than what all the world's great religions demand - that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Let us be our brother's keeper, Scripture tells us. Let us be our sister's keeper. Let us find that common stake we all have in one another, and let our politics reflect that spirit as well.

For we have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism. We can tackle race only as spectacle - as we did in the OJ trial - or in the wake of tragedy, as we did in the aftermath of Katrina - or as fodder for the nightly news. We can play Reverend Wright's sermons on every channel, every day and talk about them from now until the election, and make the only question in this campaign whether or not the American people think that I somehow believe or sympathize with his most offensive words. We can pounce on some gaffe by a Hillary supporter as evidence that she's playing the race card, or we can speculate on whether white men will all flock to John McCain in the general election regardless of his policies.

We can do that.

But if we do, I can tell you that in the next election, we'll be talking about some other distraction. And then another one. And then another one. And nothing will change.

That is one option. Or, at this moment, in this election, we can come together and say, "Not this time." This time we want to talk about the crumbling schools that are stealing the future of black children and white children and Asian children and Hispanic children and Native American children. This time we want to reject the cynicism that tells us that these kids can't learn; that those kids who don't look like us are somebody else's problem. The children of America are not those kids, they are our kids, and we will not let them fall behind in a 21st century economy. Not this time.

This time we want to talk about how the lines in the Emergency Room are filled with whites and blacks and Hispanics who do not have health care; who don't have the power on their own to overcome the special interests in Washington, but who can take them on if we do it together.

This time we want to talk about the shuttered mills that once provided a decent life for men and women of every race, and the homes for sale that once belonged to Americans from every religion, every region, every walk of life. This time we want to talk about the fact that the real problem is not that someone who doesn't look like you might take your job; it's that the corporation you work for will ship it overseas for nothing more than a profit.

This time we want to talk about the men and women of every color and creed who serve together, and fight together, and bleed together under the same proud flag. We want to talk about how to bring them home from a war that never should've been authorized and never should've been waged, and we want to talk about how we'll show our patriotism by caring for them, and their families, and giving them the benefits they have earned.

I would not be running for President if I didn't believe with all my heart that this is what the vast majority of Americans want for this country. This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected.
 
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scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
Jeremiah Wright is a pastor in a balck church on the South Side of Chicago. 20% of his congregation is unemployed and 20% is on welfare, and that's now, when the area has been revitalized.

Yes, he has made some statements that are quite stupid (especially when taken out of context and used for political reasons), but he has also done a great deal of good in his community and has spent decades influencing and improving the area's youth.
 

Chickpea

Beach Fanatic
Dec 15, 2005
1,151
366
30-A Corridor
First, beyond the color of their skin, I think Sowell and Obama have virtually nothing in common and I cannot think of why his life story might speak to his credibility in commenting on Obama's candidacy. He is a lifelong conservative, a follower of Milton Friedman, and about as likely to offer an unbiased opinion of Obama as Paul Krugman is to be fair to John McCain.

The things you say about the four paragraphs you quote perfectly illustrates my point about Mr. Sowell's intellectual dishonesty in writing this column. He has married his characterization of Rev. Wright's views -- a characterization based on the four most inflammatory outtakes from 20 years of sermons -- to those of Barack Obama. I have read Sen. Obama's books and heard him speak many times. I feel like I have a very good understanding of Barack Obama's views on race, and I've heard his call for personal responsibility in the African-American community. I know his views, and those of Rev. Wright, have continually emphasized empowerment and personal responsibility. While I have never heard or read Barack Obama say anything that could be construed as "giving kids an excuse for why they won't succeed." While Sowell may have excellent points to make with Rev. Wright, he does not set out to do that. His purpose in writing this column was to obfuscate Obama's views. His aim was to rattle the chains of those who will not read Obama's books or listen to his speeches beyond the snippets analyzed on their preferred news sources. He did an excellent job.



McCain is your candidate of choice, and you seem to be very informed regarding your decision. I think posting this article was not about building your candidate up, it was about sharing a negative view of another candidate. The "tearing down and cutting and pasting" referred to what I would have been doing had I posted some of those anti-McCain writings. I welcome a fair discussion and examination of candidates and our political views. I responded with my thoughts on Sowell's article -- I think it lacked substance, but that substance wasn't his purpose.

If the objective is to discuss Barack Obama's views, I suggest that we begin with Barack Obama's words, not Sowell's words on some of Wright's words. So, some pertinent Obama words:

Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze - a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding.

This is where we are right now. It's a racial stalemate we've been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so nave as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy - particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.

But I have asserted a firm conviction - a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people - that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice if we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union.

For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life. But it also means binding our particular grievances - for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs - to the larger aspirations of all Americans -- the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives - by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny.

Ironically, this quintessentially American - and yes, conservative - notion of self-help found frequent expression in Reverend Wright's sermons. But what my former pastor too often failed to understand is that embarking on a program of self-help also requires a belief that society can change.

The profound mistake of Reverend Wright's sermons is not that he spoke about racism in our society. It's that he spoke as if our society was static; as if no progress has been made; as if this country - a country that has made it possible for one of his own members to run for the highest office in the land and build a coalition of white and black; Latino and Asian, rich and poor, young and old -- is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past. But what we know -- what we have seen - is that America can change. That is true genius of this nation. What we have already achieved gives us hope - the audacity to hope - for what we can and must achieve tomorrow.

In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination - and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past - are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds - by investing in our schools and our communities; by enforcing our civil rights laws and ensuring fairness in our criminal justice system; by providing this generation with ladders of opportunity that were unavailable for previous generations. It requires all Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams; that investing in the health, welfare, and education of black and brown and white children will ultimately help all of America prosper.

In the end, then, what is called for is nothing more, and nothing less, than what all the world's great religions demand - that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Let us be our brother's keeper, Scripture tells us. Let us be our sister's keeper. Let us find that common stake we all have in one another, and let our politics reflect that spirit as well.

For we have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism. We can tackle race only as spectacle - as we did in the OJ trial - or in the wake of tragedy, as we did in the aftermath of Katrina - or as fodder for the nightly news. We can play Reverend Wright's sermons on every channel, every day and talk about them from now until the election, and make the only question in this campaign whether or not the American people think that I somehow believe or sympathize with his most offensive words. We can pounce on some gaffe by a Hillary supporter as evidence that she's playing the race card, or we can speculate on whether white men will all flock to John McCain in the general election regardless of his policies.

We can do that.

But if we do, I can tell you that in the next election, we'll be talking about some other distraction. And then another one. And then another one. And nothing will change.

That is one option. Or, at this moment, in this election, we can come together and say, "Not this time." This time we want to talk about the crumbling schools that are stealing the future of black children and white children and Asian children and Hispanic children and Native American children. This time we want to reject the cynicism that tells us that these kids can't learn; that those kids who don't look like us are somebody else's problem. The children of America are not those kids, they are our kids, and we will not let them fall behind in a 21st century economy. Not this time.

This time we want to talk about how the lines in the Emergency Room are filled with whites and blacks and Hispanics who do not have health care; who don't have the power on their own to overcome the special interests in Washington, but who can take them on if we do it together.

This time we want to talk about the shuttered mills that once provided a decent life for men and women of every race, and the homes for sale that once belonged to Americans from every religion, every region, every walk of life. This time we want to talk about the fact that the real problem is not that someone who doesn't look like you might take your job; it's that the corporation you work for will ship it overseas for nothing more than a profit.

This time we want to talk about the men and women of every color and creed who serve together, and fight together, and bleed together under the same proud flag. We want to talk about how to bring them home from a war that never should've been authorized and never should've been waged, and we want to talk about how we'll show our patriotism by caring for them, and their families, and giving them the benefits they have earned.

I would not be running for President if I didn't believe with all my heart that this is what the vast majority of Americans want for this country. This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected.

Baboom - when are you running for office?????
 

Teresa

SoWal Guide
Staff member
Nov 15, 2004
30,893
9,500
South Walton, FL
sowal.com
I've received Sowell's recent articles regarding Obama via email from conservatives who are quick to point out that the writer is "African American". am I missing something here? is there a connection between the two because of skin color? is Mr Sowell qualified to make his conservative/slanted judgements on Obama and his life and policies based on his skin color? I don't get it.

Punzy is right - it is something that people like to pass around to tear down Senator Obama, the candidate.

But, it is information that is out there in the public so I think its fine for CCK or anyone to post for a point of discussion. If I run across something I find particularly interesting about a candidate, I'll likely post it, and it will probably have a slant I find acceptable to my own thinking. But, I probably won't make mention of a writer's racial or ethnic background... why would I do that?:dunno:
 
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