New big blue signs in SoWal

[Smiling JOe]

Quick question for all of you who see these blue signs at night. I have not noticed the lettering on these signs as being reflective, like the lettering on street signs. It is a MUTCD guideline that the lettering be:
"guide signs shall be retro-reflective or illuminated to show the same shape
and similar color by both day and night, unless specifically stated otherwise in the text discussion in this Manual of a particular sign or group of signs."

Anyone know?

Back to the sign colors. In Section 2A of the MUTCD, Table 2A-5. Common Uses of Sign Colors, the title of Table 2A-5 says very much -- "Common Uses" of sign colors. It is not a "requirement" for the wayfinding signs to be blue, as I read this.

This is interesting:
Section 2A.18 Mounting Height Support:
The provisions of this Section apply unless specifically stated otherwise for a particular sign elsewhere in this Manual.

Standard:
Signs installed at the side of the road in rural districts shall be at least 1.5 m (5 ft), measured from the bottom of the sign to the near edge of the pavement.
Where parking or pedestrian movements occur, the clearance to the bottom of the sign shall be at least 2.1 m (7 ft). (if the TDC is following these guidelines, it seems to me that all of the signs welcoming us into the different "towns," are set too low to the ground.)

Directional signs on freeways and expressways shall be installed with a minimum height of 2.1 m (7 ft).

If a secondary sign is mounted below another sign, the major sign shall be installed at least 2.4 m (8 ft) and the secondary sign at least 1.5 m (5 ft) above the level of the pavement edge. All route signs, warning signs, and regulatory signs on freeways and expressways shall be at least 2.1 m (7 ft) above the level of the pavement edge.

Option:
The height to the bottom of a secondary sign mounted below another sign may be 0.3 m (1 ft) less than the height specified above.

Where signs are placed 9 m (30 ft) or more from the edge of the traveled way, the height to the bottom of such signs may be 1.5 m (5 ft) above the level of the pavement edge.

 

[scooterbug44]

The signs are not easily read at night and do not appear to have reflective lettering or illumination.

 

[GoodWitch58]

I would really like to see the TDC Board Members and Staff take advantage of this situation in a positive way: think what could be done for the community if the TDC would take the energy and passion demonstrated by the citizens of Walton county because of the signs, and channel it into a positive cooperative effort to install signs that truly represent our area.

We did not need a Workshop on Signs that were already installed; the time for that kind of visioning exercise was long past;

We do not need the Interim Director to continue to imply that the signs are installed because of the FDOT;

We do not need staff blocking doors and "requiring" signatures to get into a public meeting (even to go to the bathroom!:angry:;

We do not need Guidelines laid down to members of the community in dictatorial ways-Ground Rules for meetings are a product of "buy in" from the participants and the facilitator;

We do not need citizens (and media) locked out of a public meeting; if there was a fire code issue, then the doors should have been open and a microphone set up so people outside could hear;

We do not need county employees who feel as though they have no responsibility to be accountable to the citizens of the county;

What we do need:

A TDC that markets the area using the natural beauty and peacefulness that sets South Walton apart from so much of the rest of Florida;

A Director and staff who are open to hearing and respecting the community members who have taken time off from work and family to show up--because they care so much about the community;

A meeting facilitiator who can "read" the audience, and realize that the "workshop" needs to be curtailed, so that the people can be heard;

Open doors and optional sign in sheets on a table somewhere;

TDC directors who take charge; instead of rubber-stamping whatever is put in front of them;

A leader who can come forward and take charge of a situation that has become a train wreck, but that could result in a communitiy effort that would be so much more than the sum of its parts.

 

[Smiling JOe]

Y'all are right, these are good people on the TDC board. Some are out of touch, but they didn't sign up for what's now happening. When they were approached about serving on the board, I'm sure the discussion went something like "it's just for one hour a month, all you have to do is oversee the paid staff's direction and serve as a resource for them." What they didn't count on was the controversy over the signs blowing up and driving the public into calling for explanations and more oversight.

Most of these board members are reasonable folks and they believe that the signs should be taken down. It is time for these board members to speak up and deliver a message to the paid staff that enough is enough- take down the signs and start over, cooperate with the residents and visitors to South Walton. The board needs to remember that it directs the paid staff, not the other way around.

Then we can move on and start a full, independent accounting of the TDC and bring in new leadership.

So true. I wonder how many TDC Board members, currently serving, were serving in 2002, the first public mention of these signs. Anyone know? I'd also guess that most of the TDC staff was not employed by the TDC at in 2002. Does anyone know if this is true? If it is true, why in the world are they all so defensive about the signs? It doesn't make sense to me. As for the TDC Board Members, I know none of them on a personal basis. I would like to think everyone is a good person until they prove me wrong. I hope they don't prove me wrong. I hope that they do take a stand, have the guts to say what's on their mind, and give the right direction to the staff, and have them take down the signs.

 

[Smiling JOe]

For those who want to do their own DD, Chapter 2G of the MUTCD can be found here. The only question is, after reading the Purpose and Application, do these big blue signs fit the application as described below? I don't think so.

CHAPTER 2G. TOURIST-ORIENTED DIRECTIONAL SIGNS
Section 2G.01 Purpose and Application
Support:
Tourist-oriented directional signs are guide signs with one or more panels that display the business
identification of and directional information for business, service, and activity facilities.
Standard:
A facility shall be eligible for tourist-oriented directional signs only if it derives its major portion of
income or visitors during the normal business season from road users not residing in the area of the
facility.
Option:
Tourist-oriented directional signs may include businesses involved with seasonal agricultural products.
Standard:
When used, tourist-oriented directional signs shall be used only on rural conventional roads and shall
not be used on conventional roads in urban areas nor at interchanges on freeways or expressways.
Where both tourist-oriented directional signs and Specific Service signs (see Chapter 2F) would be
needed at the same intersection, the tourist-oriented directional signs shall incorporate the needed
information from, and be used in place of, the Specific Service signs.
Guidance:
Each State that elects to use tourist-oriented directional signs should have a State policy for use as indicated
in Section 2G.07.
Option:
Tourist-oriented directional signs may be used in conjunction with General Service signs (see Section
2D.45).

 

[Smiling JOe]

Here is a really good section of the MUTCD guidelines regarding Tourist-Oriented Directional Signs:

Section 2G.07 State Policy
Standard:
"To be eligible for tourist-oriented directional signing, facilities shall comply with applicable State and Federal laws concerning the provisions of public accommodations without regard to race, religion, color, age, sex, or national origin, and with laws concerning the licensing and approval of service facilities. Each State that elects to use tourist-oriented directional signs shall adopt a policy that complies with these provisions."

Many of the "Beach Communities," which are named on the signs, are private communities. Being private, would they be eligible, as defined above, to be named on the signs?

 

[rapunzel]

I have to respectfully disagree about some of the comments about the TDC board. Yes, most or them are good people and I don't want to imply otherwise. But, people should remember that most members of the TDC are people involved directly in the tourism industry. These people benefit from the activities of the TDC, and apparently the seats are very hard to come by.

I have tried with difficulty to find guidelines for appointment to the TDC. There was a gentleman sitting next to me at Wednesday's meeting who told me that the make-up of the TDC was specified, and a certain number had to represent developers and a number had to represent the hospitality industry. He also claimed that the TDC board members nominated their own replacements. I would love to know whether or not he was correct.

TDC Board Members

Scott Brannon, County Commissioner
Mary Jo Tommas, One Seagrove Place
Maurice Gilbert, Realty One Services
Ken Gifford, Rosemary Beach (opposed to signs from beginning)
Mike Strange, Sandestin Golf & Beach Resort
Mary Brown, Beach Rentals of South Walton
John Gillis, Trustmark Bank
Don McQuade, Sandestin Golf & Beach Resort
Tim Norris, Re/Max

 

[Smiling JOe]

Punzy, as requested:
From the County's website:

Boards and Committees
Tourist Development Council

meets:
2nd Wednesday, 9:00 am, TDC Building
P.O. Box 1248 Santa Rosa Beach FL 32459

contact (obviously old information)
Kriss Titus, TDC Executive Director BCC Staff (850) 267-1216

Authority: F.S. 125.0104 (4)(e)

Term of Appointment: 4 years; 1 BCC member, 2 elected city or special taxing district officials, 6 persons in the tourist industry. All must be county
residents and nominated through the sitting Tourist Development
Council to the BCC.

Mission or Function: To make recommendations to the BCC for the effective operation of the special projects or for uses of the tourist
development tax revenue and perform such other duties as may be prescribed by county ordinance or resolution. The council shall continuously review expenditures of revenues from the tourist development trust fund and shall receive, at least quarterly, expenditure reports from the county governing board or its designee. Expenditures which
the council believes to be unauthorized shall be reported to the county governing board and the Department of Revenue.

 

[Smiling JOe]

Also, for Committees, other than the TDC, here is a link to the form to volunteer on a Committee.

 

[rapunzel]

It seems obvious to me where the attitude that the TDC operates for the tourism industry rather than the community begins....

4 years; 1 BCC member, 2 elected city or special taxing district
officials, 6 persons in the tourist industry. All must be county
residents and nominated through the sitting Tourist Development
Council to the BCC.

This is not a very democratic body, is it?