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Do you support gay marriage?

  • Yes

    Votes: 45 67.2%
  • No, for political reasons.

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • No, for religious reasons.

    Votes: 14 20.9%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 7 10.4%

  • Total voters
    67

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
I think it would be great if we focused more on creating loving families than on celebrating the baby daddy lifestyle, but people wanting legal recognition of a long term monogamous commitment contributes to the strengthening, not the breaking down of the family unit.
 

ASH

Beach Fanatic
Feb 4, 2008
2,153
443
Roosevelt, MN
This is a difficult thread to reply to as I have no wish to offend anyone.
I was brought up in the midwest in a very conservative community.
I was taught that gay people were a threat to the society I was accustomed to.
So, now that I am an older, more mature, thinking person exposed to a much broader mixture of personalities that have broadened my views on what life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness mean to many people, what do I do with all these teachings that are deeply rooted in who I am?
I am not sure that the gay community understands just how difficult it is to expect me to simply ignore, much less change these fibers, no matter how I presently feel about the gay community.
SWGB, you brought up excellent points as to your desires for everyday expectations and I absolutely agree with you on all points. I never knew you were not granted these, but understand how it got to that point.
I would venture to say that I grew up the first 20+ years of my life with absolutely no exposure to outward gay activity whatsoever. So, it is no wonder that I am shocked when I see a gay couple kiss. Again it is in my very fiber.
While I am in agreement with same sex civil rights, I can honestly also comment that it will take a long time for me to be able to accept public displays of affection.
Again, I apologize if I offend anyone. I am hoping I don't get kicked too hard for a possible explanation for what some view as bigotry.
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
The norms/ideas you grow up with ARE hard to change - I frequently have "wow" moments during discussions because the ideas or scenarios are so far from the ones I grew up with - but that doesn't mean they are right or can't be changed/gotten used to.

My friend is constantly explaining to me that our generation has a completely different view on things like racism and homosexuality, because the world as we know it is completely different from the one others grew up in.
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
That's one other thing I forgot to mention, I'm not crazy about being labeled as a racist or a bigot due to well grounded, traditional religious beliefs and thoughts on marriage.
 

TooFarTampa

SoWal Insider
This is a difficult thread to reply to as I have no wish to offend anyone.
I was brought up in the midwest in a very conservative community.
I was taught that gay people were a threat to the society I was accustomed to.
So, now that I am an older, more mature, thinking person exposed to a much broader mixture of personalities that have broadened my views on what life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness mean to many people, what do I do with all these teachings that are deeply rooted in who I am?
I am not sure that the gay community understands just how difficult it is to expect me to simply ignore, much less change these fibers, no matter how I presently feel about the gay community.
SWGB, you brought up excellent points as to your desires for everyday expectations and I absolutely agree with you on all points. I never knew you were not granted these, but understand how it got to that point.
I would venture to say that I grew up the first 20+ years of my life with absolutely no exposure to outward gay activity whatsoever. So, it is no wonder that I am shocked when I see a gay couple kiss. Again it is in my very fiber.
While I am in agreement with same sex civil rights, I can honestly also comment that it will take a long time for me to be able to accept public displays of affection.
Again, I apologize if I offend anyone. I am hoping I don't get kicked too hard for a possible explanation for what some view as bigotry.

Lots and lots of people are like you. Should I say squeamish? Don't want to put words in your mouth, but even for those who are not opposed to gay marriage strictly because of religious views, there can be an ick factor (no offense), an inner nagging that it's just not right, etc.

My parents, bless them, had a terrible marriage but one thing they both did was never, ever, disparage another race or make sexist comments or talk about gay lifestyles in a negative manner. Differences were not brought up at all, so I had every opportunity to make up my own mind. Still, since I was raised in a completely white bread environment I did not get a chance to make up my mind until much later.

What's done it for me on the issue of gay marriage in recent years is getting to know many, many gay people. I think if gay people are "new" to you, you tend to imagine sex and get squeamish and/or puzzled etc :lol: but the more you get to know them as people, the less you tend to think about that stuff. I am very friendly with a lesbian couple who just had their third child. Now, I am not friendly enough to know exactly how they had that child, and I admit being a bit curious, but I have seen how they function as a family unit and that matters more. It is impressive, and they may as well be married. The kids seem like normal kids to me. :dunno: It just doesn't seem like a big deal. Ten years ago I would have thought that they "shouldn't" have had kids, but they are doing a better job raising them than 90 percent of the hetero parents out there. At least. So, who am I to decide whether they should or shouldn't?

Is it a slippery slope? I don't know. What does that mean, exactly? In a perfect world I think it's best if kids have an intact family with a mom and a dad -- mostly because growing up is hard and both a good dad and a good mom can bring valuable things to the table -- but there are other very very good situations, and there are many gay couples who can and do can provide such a situation. Certainly many if not most of them are doing a better job than a lot of straight people. Also, many kids who are raised in a somewhat different environment end up growing into incredibly strong, independent adults, so that is also something worth thinking about.

As my views have evolved, and as I have noticed how accepting younger people are of all kinds of diversity, I have grown more and more certain that the rights of gay people to obtain the legal rights of traditional married couples is actually a civil right. This is why I don't agree with 6thgen that we are seeing "activist judges." I think they are just doing their job, which is to protect the minority from the majority according to the Constitution.
 

NoHall

hmmmm......can't remember
May 28, 2007
9,032
996
Northern Hall County, GA
I would venture to say that I grew up the first 20+ years of my life with absolutely no exposure to outward gay activity whatsoever. So, it is no wonder that I am shocked when I see a gay couple kiss. Again it is in my very fiber.

While I am in agreement with same sex civil rights, I can honestly also comment that it will take a long time for me to be able to accept public displays of affection.

Again, I apologize if I offend anyone. I am hoping I don't get kicked too hard for a possible explanation for what some view as bigotry.

I don't think you're describing bigotry, and I also don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. I have told SWGB some of my "homophobic"-ness before, so hopefully it's not a surprise.

Over the years I've realized that the only time I get really squeamish, annoyed, and consequently homophobic is in reaction to blatant displays of...whatever. (Affection? Sexuality? Moose knuckles?) Guess what...? I don't want to see heterosexual folk doing this stuff, either. Keep your clothes on, and keep private things private. What my mama said about slutty clothes applies here--If you want attention, you will get it, but is that the kind of attention you want?

That said, I've realized that there are a lot of gay people who share my sensitivity. Not all gay people are like that, but the ones seeking attention are the ones who end up on t.v.

(And I don't like watching straight people smooch and grope in public, either. Hand-holding is well and good, but sheesh...get a room...)
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
That's my point. The decision countered the state Constitution. From Baxter's dissent.

Nothing in our Constitution, express or implicit, compels the majority's startling conclusion that the age-old understanding of marriage-- an understanding recently confirmed by an initiative law-- is no longer valid. California statutes already recognize same-sex unions and grant them all the substantive legal rights this state can bestow. If there is to be a further sea change in the social and legal understanding of marriage itself, that evolution should occur by similar democratic means. The majority forecloses this ordinary democratic process, and, in doing so, oversteps its authority.

"The majority's mode of analysis is particularly troubling. The majority relies heavily on the Legislature's adoption of progressive civil rights protections for gays and lesbians to find a constitutional right to same-sex marriage. In effect, the majority gives the Legislature indirectly power that body does not directly possess to amend the Constitution and repeal an initiative statute. But a bare majority of this court, not satisfied with the pace of democratic change, now abruptly forestalls that process and substitutes, by judicial fiat, its own social policy views for those expressed by the People themselves.
"Undeterred by the strong weight of state and federal law and authority, the majority invents a new constitutional right, immune from the ordinary process of legislative consideration. The majority finds that our Constitution suddenly demands no less than a permanent redefinition of marriage, regardless of the popular will.
"In doing so, the majority holds, in effect, that the Legislature has done indirectly what the Constitution prohibits it from doing directly. Under article II, section 10, subdivision (c), that body cannot unilaterally repeal an initiative statute . . . Yet the majority suggests that, by enacting other statutes which do provide substantial rights to gays and lesbians-- including domestic partnership rights which, under [Family Code] section 308.5, the Legislature could not call 'marriage'-- the Legislature has given 'explicit official recognition' (maj. opn., ante, at pp. 68, 69) to a California right of equal treatment which, because it includes the right to marry, thereby invalidates section 308.5.
"I cannot join this exercise in legal jujitsu, by which the Legislature's own weight is used against it to create a constitutional right from whole cloth, defeat the People's will, and invalidate a statute otherwise immune from legislative interference."
 

TooFarTampa

SoWal Insider
That's my point. The decision countered the state Constitution. From Baxter's dissent.

Nothing in our Constitution, express or implicit, compels the majority's startling conclusion that the age-old understanding of marriage-- an understanding recently confirmed by an initiative law-- is no longer valid. California statutes already recognize same-sex unions and grant them all the substantive legal rights this state can bestow. If there is to be a further sea change in the social and legal understanding of marriage itself, that evolution should occur by similar democratic means. The majority forecloses this ordinary democratic process, and, in doing so, oversteps its authority.

"The majority's mode of analysis is particularly troubling. The majority relies heavily on the Legislature's adoption of progressive civil rights protections for gays and lesbians to find a constitutional right to same-sex marriage. In effect, the majority gives the Legislature indirectly power that body does not directly possess to amend the Constitution and repeal an initiative statute. But a bare majority of this court, not satisfied with the pace of democratic change, now abruptly forestalls that process and substitutes, by judicial fiat, its own social policy views for those expressed by the People themselves.
"Undeterred by the strong weight of state and federal law and authority, the majority invents a new constitutional right, immune from the ordinary process of legislative consideration. The majority finds that our Constitution suddenly demands no less than a permanent redefinition of marriage, regardless of the popular will.
"In doing so, the majority holds, in effect, that the Legislature has done indirectly what the Constitution prohibits it from doing directly. Under article II, section 10, subdivision (c), that body cannot unilaterally repeal an initiative statute . . . Yet the majority suggests that, by enacting other statutes which do provide substantial rights to gays and lesbians-- including domestic partnership rights which, under [Family Code] section 308.5, the Legislature could not call 'marriage'-- the Legislature has given 'explicit official recognition' (maj. opn., ante, at pp. 68, 69) to a California right of equal treatment which, because it includes the right to marry, thereby invalidates section 308.5.
"I cannot join this exercise in legal jujitsu, by which the Legislature's own weight is used against it to create a constitutional right from whole cloth, defeat the People's will, and invalidate a statute otherwise immune from legislative interference."

Fascinating about the majority making decisions based on recent legislation. I can understand why the dissenters are so frustrated.

But let me ask you about the first paragraph. Specifically the sentence "California statutes already recognize same-sex unions and grant them all the substantive legal rights this state can bestow." This is not the case in all 50 states, am I correct? Should -- I mean does -- the Constitution of the United States not grant these same legal rights to all persons, regardless of gender? And thus these rights would apply in every state? I agree with NoHall in the sense that the government should stay out of "marriage." My somewhat radical belief is that every person should be eligible for a civil union and that "marriage" may be better left to the religious institutions.

I am squeamish with the idea of letting gay people have civil unions while straight people get married. Separate but equal? Not quite ...

Quick, someone look up the proposed amendment to the Florida constitution that will be on the ballot in November. I will do it later if someone doesn't. It merits even further discussion, because if passed it appears to limit rights for many people, not just gay couples!
 

ASH

Beach Fanatic
Feb 4, 2008
2,153
443
Roosevelt, MN
Squeemish is a good word for how I feel.
I do not like that CCN or Fox or anyone looking to make a news story about California feels some sick need to show two guys french kissing in front of a camera. They do it for shock factor and they know it. And I feel this is wrong and only serves to fuel my squeemish-ness.
Let me throw out a few of the ways I was raised and see if it brings up any memories.
  • I was taught that gay people will raise their children to be gay and not let the child make up their own mind
  • I was taught that gay people cannot believe in God because that would be in contradiction to the written word (Soddom and Gamorrah)
  • I was taught that most gay people have AIDS and contact with them will pass it along to you
There are others I will not even mention as I consider them offensive. Essentially I was taught that gay = a sexual deviant. I imagine that this was the previous generation's attempt to explain something very foreign and frightening to them.
Go back not too much further and history records the same treatment given to black people.....Chinese.....Japaneese......Pollocks (I can say that as I am one) :D
Look what time has done for every one of these. Heck, I'm from the midwest and I'm actually thinking about voting for Obama.
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
First, I completely agree that government should stay out of marriage, but that ship left port a long, long time ago and isn?t coming back.

The decision was from the California Supreme Court, not the 9th Circuit, so they would not be commenting on the other 49 states (actually, of course SCOC would, but they shouldn?t be). But to your question, no the same rights are not present in all 50 states. However, I don?t believe tax breaks and cheap health insurance are a right that the federal government needs to be granting. Like most problems in the US, I blame Jefferson. Stupid enumerated rights.
 
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