Being Real on Taxes

[30ashopper]

Based on your quintile graphs, it would seem that the Republican admins charge the rich more and poor less, so to protect your $ you should vote Democrat!

Ha ha. Note the tick up between 1993 and 2003? That was Bill Clinton. (I'm not claiming to be in that income group either.) But I think it's interesting, if you look at the federal tax rate, it's no wonder Democrats target the rich, because pretty much every other income group is paying zilch already. The goal I feel is to push all the lines to zero or negative for everyone except the bright blue line. I do not consider that fair. It also explains why Obama is constantly harping on people who make over 200K a year - this is what he has in mind.

 

[traderx]

The graphs add substance to the debate that "the rich should pay their fair share".

 

[30ashopper]

The graphs add substance to the debate that "the rich should pay their fair share".

I can't imagine what it was like 25 years ago when people had to rely on the press and politicians for information like this. Maybe easy access to real data is one of the reasons the country has moved right over the last decade.

 

[Geo]

From what my creative accountant (Mr. K) tells me, the more you make, the fewer deductions you have. Geo...trust me, we pay.

Good point, Kitty. At some point above 250K you run out of deductions, LLC's and people to gift...

So... I still believe what I said to be true but I should append to say- it is only true up to a certain level of earnings. Where that starts I cannot say...

But I wish I had those kind of money issues...

 

[Geo]

30ashopper,

Pls correct me if I am mistaken on either of the following:

1) Your graphs support my point that we do not pay the % equal to the tax bracket we fall into (if I am in 40% tax bracket I pay less than 40% of my income in taxes)...

2) Your graphs do not display the net %'s (which would factor deductions)...

Thx, G

 

[30ashopper]

30ashopper,

Pls correct me if I am mistaken on either of the following:

1) Your graphs support my point that we do not pay the % equal to the tax bracket we fall into (if I am in 40% tax bracket I pay less than 40% of my income in taxes)...

2) Your graphs do not display the net %'s (which would factor deductions)...

Thx, G

1) yes - the data, which is provided by the CBO, represents the effective tax, which is lower than your marginal rate.

2) no - the first graph represents the actual federal tax rate, after all deductions, credits, etc.. The second graph goes one step further, it includes the effective federal rate, plus the percentage of an employers match, the corporate tax, and excise taxes, all of which end up being paid by the consumer.

Here's the details on the data -

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/88xx/doc8885/EffectiveTaxRates.shtml

Somewhere on that site there's more current data (up to 2007 I think) but I didn't look I just used what Google found. If I find it I'll update the graphs.

 

[poppy]

I can't imagine what it was like 25 years ago when people had to rely on the press and politicians for information like this. Maybe easy access to real data is one of the reasons the country has moved right over the last decade.

If Obama is elected wouldn't that show the country is now moving left?

 

[Geo]

Hey,

I'm genuinely sorry that I am not articulating myself as well as I'd like...

My point isn't to compare tax I pay now versus 10 years ago. I am not trying to figure out how much I pay (I know how much I pay). And I'm not comparing Clinton vs. Bush tax plans...

I'm trying to say-

1) We don't really pay what our tax bracket is. If I am in 40% tax bracket it does not mean that I give Uncle Sam 40K for every 100K...

2) Folks in lower tax brackets pay closer to the % of their tax bracket than folks do in higher tax brackets (based on having more deductions, creative accountants, etc.)...

3) Many claims our politicians make about the tax we pay (or will pay if "that one" is elected) are intentionally misleading...

So then is my point 2 untrue?

If the data you present says someone who is supposed to pay 10% really pays 5% and someone who is supposed to pay 40% really pays 25% then an argument can be made that it is not untrue based on delta of points...

G

 

[30ashopper]

If Obama is elected wouldn't that show the country is now moving left?

You know I was thinking about this while fixing dinner - it's not just the United States, it's western and eastern Europe, it's Canada, it's Russia, China, and Austrailia. I'm sure there are other examples. The only anomoly seems to be Latin America which is headed in the opposite direction.

I wouldn't say poppy that Obama is a trend, not yet anyway. It's one election surrounded by very unique circumstances. Take a good look at those graphs. The Democrats would like you to believe there's a class war building against the haves by the have nots.. I think they have the sides mixed up. It might be the haves that are getting tired of carrying everyone else on their backs.

 

[Geo]

You know I was thinking about this while fixing dinner - it's not just the United States, it's western and eastern Europe, it's Canada, it's Russia, China, and Austrailia. I'm sure there are other examples. The only anomoly seems to be Latin America which is headed in the opposite direction.

I wouldn't say poppy that Obama is a trend, not yet anyway. It's one election surrounded by very unique circumstances. Take a good look at those graphs. The Democrats would like you to believe there's a class war building against the haves by the have nots..

Which ones?

I think they have the sides mixed up. It might be the haves that are getting tired of carrying everyone else on their backs.

Do you believe this? That by doing well that you are carrying folks on your back? Most believe they pay more taxes than they'd prefer. But because you earn more and therefore pay more (as part of a progressive system) you believe that you are carrying the rest of us on your back?