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traderx

Beach Fanatic
Mar 25, 2008
2,133
467
While I agree with this, idealist libertarians seem incapable of also mentioning where capitalism went wrong - 40 to 1 leveraging, CDSs, the creation of mortgage backed securities, ratings agencies that were in the tank with the companies whose securities they rate, etc.. Clearly some regulation is warranted. We'll see a knee jerk reaction unfortunately which future politicians will have to undo, but clearly you can't step completely away from the system and let it regulate itself. We wouldn't be in such a mess if better controls were in place.

Don't forget however, that none of the leveraging would have been possible without Fannie and Freddie. Government intervention, while well-intentioned, rarely leads to a good outcome. I say get the government out of the car business, bank business, mortgage business, et al, and let's go back to basics. As for capitalism going wrong, there is no perfect economic system. There are seasons and we are approaching winter. All part of the deal. My, but we sure had a glorious summer, didn't we? :wave:
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
I keep wanting to place the blame for this fiasco squarely on these automakers and their management (or lack thereof).

Everyone in my family drives a wide variety of their cars or SUVs, and other automakers are building cars in the US and dealing w/ the same UAW. :dunno:
 

traderx

Beach Fanatic
Mar 25, 2008
2,133
467
I keep wanting to place the blame for this fiasco squarely on these automakers and their management (or lack thereof).

Everyone in my family drives a wide variety of their cars or SUVs, and other automakers are building cars in the US and dealing w/ the same UAW. :dunno:

I don't believe that all the plants are UAW; for example Toyota has some non-union plants? They pay close to union scale probably much like Delta did for years to counter the need for workers to unionize.

Plus, foreign automakers do not have the legacy costs of the Big Three. :dunno:

I blame management and the UAW. The UAW with full support of the NLRB, pushed things to the brink. And give management their due: they have been pretty clueless. All you have to do is visit GM.com to see how complex that company is.
 

Mango

SoWal Insider
Apr 7, 2006
9,699
1,368
New York/ Santa Rosa Beach
Don't forget however, that none of the leveraging would have been possible without Fannie and Freddie. Government intervention, while well-intentioned, rarely leads to a good outcome. I say get the government out of the car business, bank business, mortgage business, et al, and let's go back to basics. As for capitalism going wrong, there is no perfect economic system. There are seasons and we are approaching winter. All part of the deal. My, but we sure had a glorious summer, didn't we? :wave:

How was Fannie and Freddie not capitalistic organizations? Fannie Mae was not a government entity, they were an independent, publicly traded, private sector firm. They were allowed to borrow at better rates than banks as a GSE. They bought what they did in an attempt to grab share and profits. If they came under pressure from Congress -- or Angelo Mozilla, or hedge fund investors -- it was because they were trying to capture market share and profits and maintain an advantageous position in the marketplace. Also, the rest of the world had an increase in housing prices and they did not have a Fannie and Freddie, either.

I do not understand why people believe that a laissez-faire capitalism alone is the answer and that government intervention hinders capitalism. As a matter of fact, the greed and let's say capitalism, is what actually made many wealthy enough to lobby for their interests. We live in one of the most capitalistic countries in the world. Immigrants come here to open businesses. Without government intervention, we would not have small business SBA loans for minorities to start businesses. They drive a good portion of our economy. Statistics show that immigrants and minorities, including woman, are the most likely to start small businesses.

So, what economic model will work going forward? I don't think anyone knows for sure, but the dang Libra in me is always seeking balance and I agree with this essay in part which ends with...........................................

"It is possible to have an enlightened ruler that will direct policy for the good of society, but the chances are small, so the best way to design such new social structures is via democratic governance political mechanisms. There are no capitalist enterprises that are run democratically, even in the western democracies. They all are manged in a top-down fashion, by hand-picked managers and self-perpetuating boards of directors. The ability of the "owners" (the shareholders) to set policy is non-existent in reality, regardless of the nominal structure. New enterprises will have to be managed democratically and their goals will have to be part of the greater social good and not just to "maximize profits" for the shareholders."

"We have some models for these types of enterprises as well. In the past we have had mutual societies (banks, insurance, etc.) as well as cooperatives and employee owned enterprises. Variations on these arrangements need to be explored. It's the lack of imagination by economists, social scientists and politicians that is holding us back. Perhaps new ideas will have to come from the bottom up."

"When you have a patient dying of obesity the first thing to do is stop expanding his consumption. We have a sick planet and the old ways won't work in the future. Capitalism must die!"

Some excerpts from his essay which I felt were directly related to our discussion.....................................

Improper ideology, hypocrisy division. The most common example of this these days is in the area of laissez faire economic policy. This includes both "free" trade and the removal of constraints on business activities of for-profit firms. Those who stand to gain preach an ideology which they don't follow in practice. Rather than pursuing unfettered competition they spend vast sums of money buying politicians so that policies are enacted which favor their interests explicitly. They are further aided by a large chorus of useful idiots who spout the ideology without looking at the real situation.

Imbalance of power. This is the "liberal" school which thinks that excesses can be handled by proper regulation (especially by government and international agreements). They are reinforced in their view by the limited successes that have occurred in the past after similar disruptions. They posit that humans are prone to excess (hence the seven deadly sins), but think that social structures can be put in place to tame the excesses, especially of greed and the lust for power. Unfortunately such social structures are run by people who are also susceptible to the same forces. Recent events have shown the ease with which regulatory agencies can be rendered ineffective. As for those who become autocrats, societies have a hard time preventing their rise or wrenching power from them once they take command. Power shifts away from these autocrats usually involves armed conflict and social unrest.

http://robertdfeinman.com/society/capitalism_must_die.html
 

traderx

Beach Fanatic
Mar 25, 2008
2,133
467
We have no pure model of capitalism in the world because government does what government does best - or worst depending on one's perspective: tinker. The purest form of capalism exists in Hong Kong. Look at the GDP growth rates of HK as compared to Israel, France, Sweden, US, etc.

Fannie and Freddie were tinkered with by the Congress. The compulsion to loan money to people who could not possibly pay it back is at the center of this mess.
 

jodiFL

Beach Fanatic
Jul 28, 2007
2,469
744
SOWAL,FL
How in the world does anyone have the cajones to fly a private jet to beg for money? sort of like your relative driving to your house in a caddy to ask to borrow money. :rotfl: This whole bailout fiasco make me want to :boxing: or:puke:
I like that one person likened it to a guy in top hat & tails in a soup kitchen. Personally I think they should all be tried under the RICO act. (cough up the cash or we lay off 55,000 workers)
 

Mango

SoWal Insider
Apr 7, 2006
9,699
1,368
New York/ Santa Rosa Beach
We have no pure model of capitalism in the world because government does what government does best - or worst depending on one's perspective: tinker. The purest form of capalism exists in Hong Kong. Look at the GDP growth rates of HK as compared to Israel, France, Sweden, US, etc.

Fannie and Freddie were tinkered with by the Congress. The compulsion to loan money to people who could not possibly pay it back is at the center of this mess.

The US did have a strictly laissez-faire approach to economics in the 1920's. Look what happened then? Hoover continued with this approach after the stock market crash and it accomplished nothing. It wasn't until FDR came in and established the New Deal that lifted the economy out of depression. IMO, it was the second New Deal that is where FDR faltered as well as pressure to stop deficit spending when the country wasn't ready for it, yet. I think Keynesian methods work to a degree, however, there needs to be a point where the line is drawn where it inhibits advances in technology and weeding out the excess, like bailing out the auto industry. I'm not happy about bailing out Banks and homeowners, especially those who lived beyond their means, but credit and liquidity are needed to keep the economy humming. There are no technological advances or good that can result from not doing such.

I could be wrong. My husband thinks so and is bracing for another Great Depression within 4 years time. I better hide my jewelry so it doesn't get converted to gold. ;-)
 

traderx

Beach Fanatic
Mar 25, 2008
2,133
467
The US did have a strictly laissez-faire approach to economics in the 1920's. Look what happened then? Hoover continued with this approach after the stock market crash and it accomplished nothing. It wasn't until FDR came in and established the New Deal that lifted the economy out of depression. IMO, it was the second New Deal that is where FDR faltered as well as pressure to stop deficit spending when the country wasn't ready for it, yet. I think Keynesian methods work to a degree, however, there needs to be a point where the line is drawn where it inhibits advances in technology and weeding out the excess, like bailing out the auto industry. I'm not happy about bailing out Banks and homeowners, especially those who lived beyond their means, but credit and liquidity are needed to keep the economy humming. There are no technological advances or good that can result from not doing such.

I could be wrong. My husband thinks so and is bracing for another Great Depression within 4 years time. I better hide my jewelry so it doesn't get converted to gold. ;-)

Actually, Hoover and the Congress implemented tighter controls by the government, the exact opposite of what was needed.

It is a myth that the New Deal brought us out of the GD. It was a combination of WWII and the natural resilience of our economy, after the Prez, Congress and Fed did their best to kill it.

We also had all those Keynesian public works programs which rendered some beautiful roads up and down the Californicaiton coast but nothing as to economic recovery. The Dems in the Congress are pushing for public works type programs to rebuild infrastructure, create jobs, etc. BTW, where is the I am gonna be sick smiley?

In a recent NY Times piece, Nobel Krugman campaigned for such spending but he used an economic "law" to divine that we need to spend $700 billion instead of the paltry $300 billion contemplated by the Congress. Krugman still believes in Keynes even though that economic theory was proven wrong in the 30's, 60's and 70's. The famous Keynesian mantra about inflation and unemployment was also proven wrong as were wage and price controls. Still - still - the Keynesians persist and even win Nobels. :bang:
 
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