• Trouble logging in? Send us a message with your username and/or email address for help.
New posts

30ashopper

SoWal Insider
Apr 30, 2008
6,845
3,471
59
Right here!
I think it is possible that part of why this is being blown up in the media and government is the outdated perception of American cars vs. Foreign cars. "Real Americans" heard for a long time that Toyota was better than their American Pie brands. Whether they believed it or not is a whole other story. But now that Toyota has a product issue and their is some bad behavior involved they want to stick it to the Japanese automaker. But they won't just be sticking it to the Japanese because the lines are blurred now of what makes a car an American car vs. other.

From everything I've read, I don't think this is being blown out of proportion at all. Toyota produced faulty product that resulted in safety risk for those that own the cars. When that happens companies are often required to do recalls if the hazard is serious enough. I don't understand why this is such a big deal for people, happens all the time. My suggestion to Toyota would be - don't produce unsafe cars and you won't have to worry about your brand being tarnished.
 
Last edited:

Lynnie

SoWal Insider
Apr 18, 2007
8,151
434
SoBuc
Firestone was annihilated by the press. Remember? There was a tire shortage due to this issue and I had to buy a set of tires during that time. Almost couldn't get them and when I did, they were very expensive.

Two areas of blatant negligence by Toyota: Europe advised of the issue and they began recall there, but didn't fully disclose to the US; and, according to Matt's post, the mechanism manufactured in Japan is a superior product to the one manufactured here where there is a problem (why didn't they change manufacturers of this product upon discovery of this?).
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
For comparison/reality check, 45,000 Americans will die from not having health care this year and around 40,000 from car accidents.

This MAY be related to 35 deaths.
 

Lynnie

SoWal Insider
Apr 18, 2007
8,151
434
SoBuc
For comparison/reality check, 45,000 Americans will die from not having health care this year and around 40,000 from car accidents.

This MAY be related to 35 deaths.

Yes. The reality is that this is being investigated. Could turn out to have not caused 34 deaths (I hope this is the case), but they still have and are responsible for 8MM US cars on recall, having previously been fully aware of the issue. That's reality. I really don't think this can be compared to hot dogs, health care or any other issue surrounding one's untimely demise.

Toyota, Mr. Toyota has stood before the world and accepted this responsibility. I don't see anyone here wanting to engage in an argument.
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
The thread is about whether or not there is an overreaction - my point was that the "danger" this presents is minute compared to so many other things ...................... that aren't constantly being publicized.
 

30ashopper

SoWal Insider
Apr 30, 2008
6,845
3,471
59
Right here!
The thread is about whether or not there is an overreaction - my point was that the "danger" this presents is minute compared to so many other things ...................... that aren't constantly being publicized.

If one kid looses a finger in a defective stroller, should the press not report the recall because *only one kid lost his finger*? :D
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
They should report it - but not make it the headline every day, all day like it's the biggest issue in our world.
 

Geo

Beach Fanatic
Dec 24, 2006
2,740
2,795
Santa Rosa Beach, FL
People react to things emotionally rather than rationally. 4,000 people died on 9-11. Over 100,000 died from a tsunami a couple years later. Which one received greater airplay and why? One of these events still affects the daily lives of millions of people worldwide. The other most of us probably can't remember the date or area when/where it occurred.

Airplanes flying into buildings and cars racing out of control are subconsciously sexy to people. The imagery of these types of events clouds judgement.
 

Lynnie

SoWal Insider
Apr 18, 2007
8,151
434
SoBuc
I don't know, this is interesting: I remember exactly where I was when 9.11.01 occurred and what I was doing (a terrorist attack on US soil); and, I remember where I was the day after Christmas, I think 2006 (I didn't google this - if not 2006, then it was 2005) regarding the Tsunami (an act of nature).

Emotions come into play for different people for different reasons, obviously. But, the Toyota thing, an act of purported negligence in the US by a corporation of whom millions place their trust for safety. I think this should be compared to a similar event. And, the only one I can recall in recent history was Firestone. Millions of tires manufactured that blew and shredded at a higher speed (60MPH, I think?) causing deaths and injuries, affecting the economy as was previously suggested and caused people to lose trust in the product and company overall. Was Firestone in the news everyday? I don't remember, but didn't they choose a new manufacturer, which was the cause?

Sexy? Hmmm, I'm glad I don't know these people personally. All are tragic events. We don't see more about Haiti right now on main stream news, just like The Tsunami because of the horrific conditions, but people are still 'tuned in' to help and assist.
 

Surfrider28

Beach Comber
Sep 1, 2008
41
8
Toyota secretive on 'black box' data

SOUTHLAKE, Texas Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden unintended acceleration, according to a review of lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.

The investigation found that Toyota has been inconsistent - and sometimes even contradictory - in revealing exactly what the devices record and don't record, including critical data about whether the brake or accelerator pedals were depressed at the time of a crash.

By contrast, most other automakers routinely allow much more open access to information from their event data recorders, commonly known as EDRs.

Also found that Toyota:

- Has frequently refused to provide key information sought by crash victims and survivors.

- Uses proprietary software in its EDRs. Until this week, there was only a single laptop in the U.S. containing the software needed to read the data following a crash.

- In some lawsuits, when pressed to provide recorder information Toyota either settled or provided printouts with the key columns blank.

Toyota's "black box" information is emerging as a critical legal issue amid the recall of 8 million vehicles by the world's largest automaker. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said this week that 52 people have died in crashes linked to accelerator problems, triggering an avalanche of lawsuits.

When Toyota was asked to explain what exactly its recorders do collect, a company statement said Thursday that the devices record data from five seconds before until two seconds after an air bag is deployed in a crash.

The statement said information is captured about vehicle speed, the accelerator's angle, gear shift position, whether the seat belt was used and the angle of the driver's seat.

There was no initial mention of brakes - a key point in the sudden acceleration problem. When investigators went back to Toyota to ask specifically about brake information, Toyota responded that its EDRs do, in fact, record "data on the brake's position and the antilock brake system."

But that does not square with information obtained by attorneys in a deadly crash last year in Southlake, Texas, and in a 2004 accident in Indiana that killed an elderly woman.

In the Texas crash, where four people died when their 2008 Avalon ripped through a fence, hit a tree and flipped into an icy pond, an EDR readout obtained by police listed as "off" any information on acceleration or braking.

In the 2004 crash in Evansville, Ind., that killed 77-year-old Juanita Grossman, attorneys for her family say a Toyota technician traveled from the company's U.S. headquarters in Torrance, Calif., to examine her 2003 Camry.

Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.

A Toyota representative told the family's attorneys there was "no sensor that would have preserved information regarding the accelerator and brake positions at the time of impact," according to a summary of the case provided by Safety Research & Strategies Inc., a Rehoboth, Mass.-based company that does vehicle safety research for attorneys, engineers, government and others.

One attorney in the Texas case contends in court documents that Toyota may have deliberately stopped allowing its EDRs to collect critical information so the Japanese automaker would not be forced to reveal it in court cases.

"This goes directly to defendants' notice of the problem and willingness to cover up the problem," said E. Todd Tracy, who had been suing automakers for 20 years.

Randy Roberts, an attorney for the driver in that case, said he was surprised at how little information the Avalon's EDR contained.

"When I found out the Toyota black box was so uninformative, I was shocked," Roberts said.

Toyota refused comment Thursday on Tracy's allegations because it is an ongoing legal matter, but said the company does share EDR information with government regulators.

"Because the EDR system is an experimental device and is neither intended, nor reliable, for accident reconstruction, Toyota's policy is to download data only at the direction of law enforcement, NHTSA or a court order," the Toyota statement said.

Last week, Toyota acknowledged it has only a single laptop available in the U.S. to download its data recorder information because it is still a prototype, despite being in use since 2001 in Toyota vehicles. Three other laptops capable of reading the devices were delivered this week to NHTSA for training on their use, Toyota said, and 150 more will be brought to the U.S. for commercial use by the end of April.

By contrast, acceptance and distribution of data recorder technology by other automakers is commonplace.

General Motors, for example, has licensed the auto parts maker Bosch to produce a device capable of downloading EDR data directly to a laptop computer, either from the scene of an accident or later. The device is available to law enforcement agencies or any other third party, spokesman Alan Adler said.

Spokesmen from Ford and Chrysler said their recorder data is just as accessible. "We put what you would call 'open systems' in our vehicles, which are readable by law enforcement or anyone who has a need to read that data," Chrysler spokesman Mike Palese said.

Nissan also makes its EDR data readily available to third parties using a device called Consult, spokesman Colin Price said. The program allows access to a host of vehicle data, from diagnosing the cause of a check-engine light to downloading EDR data after a crash, he said.

However, Honda does not allow open access to its EDR data. Spokesman Ed Miller said the data is only readable by Honda and is made available only by court order.

In many cases, attorneys and crash experts say EDR data could help explain what happened in the moments before a crash by detailing the positions of the gas and brake pedals as well as the engine's RPM.

"Had Toyota gotten on the stick and made this stuff available early on, I think they'd be in a better position than they are now," said W.R. "Rusty" Haight, owner of a San Diego-based collision investigation company.

In congressional hearings on the recalls last week, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Toyota's EDR data cannot be read by a commercially available tool used readily by other automakers. "Toyota has a proprietary EDR, which is the system that only they can read," LaHood said.

A review of lawsuits around the country found many in which Toyota was accused of refusing to reveal EDR and other data, and not just in sudden acceleration cases.

In Kentucky, to cite one example, a recent lawsuit filed by Dari Martin over a wreck involving a 2007 Prius sought information from Toyota to bolster his claim that the car's seatbelt was defective. Toyota refused, contending there was no reliable way to validate the EDR data and that an engineer would have to travel from New Jersey or California at a cost of some $5,000 to retrieve it.

"There is simply no justifiable reason for Toyota not to disclose this information," Martin's lawyers said in a court filing.

Lawsuits in California and Colorado have accused Toyota of systemically withholding key documents and information in a wide variety of accident cases, but no judge or jury has found against the car company on those allegations.

Some crash experts say Toyota shouldn't bear too much criticism for failing to capture large amounts or specific kinds of data, because EDR systems were initially built for air bag deployment and not necessarily to reconstruct wrecks. They also vary widely from vehicle model to model, said Haight, the San Diego collision expert.

"That doesn't mean I'm hiding something or preventing you from getting something," Haight said. "It simply means that, in the development of a car, other considerations took priority - nothing more

By CURT ANDERSON and DANNY ROBBINS
 
New posts


Sign Up for SoWal Newsletter