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The US War - Five Years On

6thGen avatar
Beach Fanatic
12,409 views
Since the discussion is on-topic, here is an intellectually honest look at the war on terrorism. This is an article I saved from 9/12/06.

The U.S. War, Five Years On
By George Friedman

It has been five years since the Sept. 11 attacks. In thinking about the course of the war against al Qaeda, two facts emerge pre-eminent.

The first is that the war has succeeded far better than anyone would have thought on Sept. 12, 2001. We remember that day clearly, and had anyone told us that there would be no more al Qaeda attacks in the United States for at least five years, we would have been incredulous. Yet there have been no attacks.

The second fact is that the U.S. intervention in the Islamic world has not achieved its operational goals. There are multiple insurgencies under way in Iraq, and the United States does not appear to have sufficient force or strategic intent to suppress them. In Afghanistan, the Taliban has re-emerged as a powerful fighting force. It is possible that the relatively small coalition force -- a force much smaller than that fielded by the defeated Soviets in Afghanistan -- can hold it at bay, but clearly coalition troops cannot annihilate it.

A Strategic Response

The strategic goal of the United States on Sept. 12, 2001, was to prevent any further attacks within the United States. Al Qaeda, defined as the original entity that orchestrated the 1998 attacks against the U.S. embassies in Africa, the USS Cole strike and 9/11, has been thrown into disarray and has been unable to mount a follow-on attack without being detected and disrupted. Other groups, loosely linked to al Qaeda or linked only by name or shared ideology, have carried out attacks, but none have been as daring and successful as 9/11.

In response to 9/11, the United States resorted to direct overt and covert intervention throughout the Islamic world. With the first intervention, in Afghanistan, the United States and coalition forces disrupted al Qaeda's base of operations, destabilized the group and forced it on the defensive. Here also, the stage was set for a long guerrilla war that the United States cannot win with the forces available.

The invasion of Iraq, however incoherent the Bush administration's explanation of it might be, achieved two things. First, it convinced Saudi Arabia of the seriousness of American resolve and caused the Saudis to become much more aggressive in cooperating with U.S. intelligence. Second, it allowed the United States to occupy the most strategic ground in the Middle East -- bordering on Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Iran. From here, the United States was able to pose overt threats and to stage covert operations against al Qaeda. Yet by invading Iraq, the United States also set the stage for the current military crisis.

The U.S. strategy was to disrupt al Qaeda in three ways:

1. Bring the intelligence services of Muslim states -- through persuasion, intimidation or coercion -- to provide intelligence that was available only to them on al Qaeda's operations.

2. By invading Afghanistan and Iraq, use main force to disrupt al Qaeda and to intimidate and coerce Islamic states. In other words, use Operation 2 to achieve Operation 1.

3. Use the intelligence gained by these methods to conduct a range of covert operations throughout the world, including in the United States itself, to disrupt al Qaeda operations.

The problem, however, was this. The means used to compel cooperation with the intelligence services in countries such as Pakistan or Saudi Arabia involved actions that, while successful in the immediate intent, left U.S. forces exposed on a battleground where the correlation of forces, over time, ceased to favor the United States. In other words, while the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq did achieve their immediate ends and did result in effective action against al Qaeda, the outcome was to expose the U.S. forces to exhausting counterinsurgency that they were not configured to win.

Hindsight: The Search for an Ideal Strategy

The ideal outcome likely would have been to carry out the first and third operations without the second. As many would argue, an acceptable outcome would have been to carry out the Afghanistan operation without going into Iraq. This is the crux of the debate that has been raging since the Iraq invasion and that really began earlier, during the Afghan war, albeit in muted form. On the one side, the argument is that by invading Muslim countries, the United States has played into al Qaeda's hands and actually contributed to radicalization among Islamists -- and that by refraining from invasion, the Americans would have reduced the threat posed by al Qaeda. On the other side, the argument has been made that without these two invasions -- the one for direct tactical reasons, the other for psychological and political reasons -- al Qaeda would be able to operate securely and without effective interference from U.S. intelligence and that, therefore, these invasions were the price to be paid.

There are three models, then, that have been proposed as ideals:

1. The United States should have invaded neither Afghanistan nor Iraq, but instead should have relied entirely on covert measures (with various levels of restraint suggested) to defeat al Qaeda.

2. The United States should have invaded Afghanistan to drive out al Qaeda and disrupt the organization, but should not have invaded Iraq.

3. The United States needed to invade both Iraq and Afghanistan -- the former for strategic reasons and to intimidate key players, the latter to disrupt al Qaeda operations and its home base.

It is interesting to pause and consider that the argument is rarely this clear-cut. Those arguing for Option 1 rarely explain how U.S. covert operations would be carried out, and frequently oppose those operations as well. Those who make the second argument fail to explain how, given that the command cell of al Qaeda had escaped Afghanistan, the United States would continue the war -- or more precisely, where the Americans would get the intelligence to fight a covert war. Those who argue for the third course -- the Bush administration -- rarely explain precisely what the strategic purpose of the war was.

In fact, 9/11 created a logic that drove the U.S. responses. Before any covert war could be launched, al Qaeda's operational structure had to be disrupted -- at the very least, to buy time before another attack. Therefore, an attack in Afghanistan had to come first (and did, commencing about a month after 9/11). Calling this an invasion, of course, would be an error: The United States borrowed forces from Russian and Iranian allies in Afghanistan -- and that, coupled with U.S. air power, forced the Taliban out of the cities to disperse, regroup and restart the war later.

Covert War and a Logical Progression

The problem that the United States had with commencing covert operations against al Qaeda was weakness in its intelligence system. To conduct a covert war, you must have excellent intelligence -- and U.S. intelligence on al Qaeda in the wake of 9/11 was not good enough to sustain a global covert effort. The best intelligence on al Qaeda, simply given the nature of the group as well as its ideology, was in the hands of the Pakistanis and the Saudis. At the very least, Islamic governments were more likely to have accumulated the needed intelligence than the CIA was.

The issue was in motivating these governments to cooperate with the U.S. effort. The Saudis in particular were dubious about U.S. will, given previous decades of behavior. Officials in Riyadh frankly were more worried about al Qaeda's behavior within Saudi Arabia if they collaborated with the Americans than they were about the United States acting resolutely. Recall that the Saudis asked U.S. forces to leave Saudi Arabia after 9/11. Changing the kingdom's attitude was a necessary precursor to waging the covert war, just as Afghanistan was a precursor to changing attitudes in Pakistan.

Invading Iraq was a way for the United States to demonstrate will, while occupying strategic territory to bring further pressure against countries like Syria. It was also a facilitator for a global covert war. The information the Saudis started to provide after the U.S. invasion was critical in disrupting al Qaeda operations. And the Saudis did, in fact, pay the price for collaboration: Al Qaeda rose up against the regime, staging its first attack in the kingdom in May 2003, and was repressed.

In this sense, we can see a logical progression. Invading Afghanistan disrupted al Qaeda operations there and forced Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to step up cooperation with the United States. Invading Iraq reshaped Saudi thinking and put the United States in a position to pressure neighboring countries. The two moves together increased U.S. intelligence capabilities decisively and allowed it to disrupt al Qaeda.

But it also placed U.S. forces in a strategically difficult position. Any U.S. intervention in Asia, it has long been noted, places the United States at a massive disadvantage. U.S. troops inevitably will be outnumbered. They also will be fighting on an enemy's home turf, far away from everything familiar and comfortable. If forced into a political war, in which the enemy combatants use the local populace to hide themselves -- and if that populace is itself hostile to the Americans -- the results can be extraordinarily unpleasant. Thus, the same strategy that allowed the United States to disrupt al Qaeda also placed U.S. forces in strategically difficult positions in two theaters of operation.

Mission Creep and Crisis

The root problem was that the United States did not crisply define the mission in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Obviously, the immediate purpose was to create an environment in which al Qaeda was disrupted and the intelligence services of Muslim states felt compelled to cooperate with the United States. But by revising the mission upward -- from achieving these goals to providing security to rooting out Baathism and the Taliban, then to providing security against insurgents and even to redefining these two societies as democracies -- the United States overreached. The issue was not whether democracy is desirable; the issue was whether the United States had sufficient forces at hand to reshape Iraqi and Afghan societies in the face of resistance.

If the Americans had not at first expected resistance, they certainly discovered that they were facing it shortly after taking control of the major cities of each country. At that moment, they had to make a basic decision between pursuing the United States' own interests or defining the interest as transforming Afghan and Iraqi society. At the moment Washington chose transformation, it had launched into a task it could not fulfill -- or, if it could fulfill it, would be able to do so only with enormously more force than it placed in either country. When we consider that 300,000 Soviet troops could not subdue Afghanistan, we get a sense of how large a force would have been needed.

The point here is this: The means used by the United States to cripple al Qaeda also created a situation that was inherently dangerous to the United States. Unless the mission had been parsed precisely -- with the United States doing what it needed to do to disrupt al Qaeda but not overreaching itself -- the outcome would be what we see now. It is, of course, easy to say that the United States should have intervened, achieved its goals and left each country in chaos; it is harder to do. Nevertheless, the United States intervened, did not leave the countries and still has chaos. That can be said with hindsight. Acting so callously with foresight is more difficult.

There remains the question of whether the United States could have crippled al Qaeda without invading Iraq -- a move that still would have left Afghanistan in its current state, but which would seem to have been better than the situation now at hand. The answer to that question rests on two elements. First, it is simply not clear that the Saudis' appreciation of the situation, prior to March 2003, would have moved them to cooperate, and extensive diplomacy over the subject prior to the invasion had left the Americans reasonably convinced that the Saudis could do more. Advocates of diplomacy would have to answer the question of what more the United States could have done on that score. Now, perhaps, over time the United States could have developed its own intelligence sources within al Qaeda. But time was exactly what the United States did not have.

But most important, the U.S. leadership underestimated the consequences of an invasion. They set their goals as high as they did because they did not believe that the Iraqis would resist -- and when resistance began, they denied that it involved anything more than the ragtag remnants of the old regime. Their misreading of Iraq was compounded with an extraordinary difficulty in adjusting their thinking as reality unfolded.

But even without the administration's denial, we can see in hindsight that the current crisis was hardwired into the strategy. If the United States wanted to destroy al Qaeda, it had to do things that would suck it into the current situation -- unless it was enormously skilled and nimble, which it certainly was not. In the end, the primary objective -- defending the homeland -- was won at the cost of trying to achieve goals in Iraq and Afghanistan that cannot be achieved.

In the political debate that is raging today in the United States, our view is that both sides are quite wrong. The administration's argument for building democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan misses the point that the United States cannot be successful in this, because it lacks the force to carry out the mission. The administration's critics, who argue that Iraq particularly diverted attention from fighting al Qaeda, fail to appreciate the complex matrix of relationships the United States was trying to adjust with its invasion of Iraq.

The administration is incapable of admitting that it has overreached and led U.S. forces into an impossible position. Its critics fail to understand the intricate connections between the administration's various actions and the failure of al Qaeda to strike inside the United States for five years.

Replies

242
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#52
Mango,

You and Uncle Timmy and others are absolutely right about pre-war intelligence.

I want to absolutely SCREAM when I hear or read people say that hindsight is 50-50 and so much of the chaos there reigns there now could NOT have been anticipated - well, exxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcuse me - there were PLENTY of people who predicted that this war would bring about escalation in violence, have possibility of destabilizing oil market and actually make us all less safe (so much for so called war on terrorism!) but all those reports were squashed, ignored and edited!

Thanks and Happy Easter!

Hindsight is usually 20/20. Whenever the budding experts on international affairs on here tire of rehashing the obvious, what I would like to know is, what do we do now? Please be specific, and feel free to forward your ideas to the 2008 candidates...I looked at most of the major players websites yesterday on both sides of the aisle, and other than Kucinich (ok, not a major player but a fun read) and McCain, the others are pretty vague.

Happy Easter wishes all around from chilly, damp New Orleans.😀
John R avatar
needs to get out more
#53
It looks like I missed the moveon.org party last night:lol:

it was at your house, sorry about the broken bong.
Cil avatar
Beach Fanatic
#54
lol John R

No doubt the prognostication and rhetoric palls some, but many of us were against the war from Day 1 and it's not so much 20-20 hindsight as it is grim recognition. I don't think anyone is high-fiving each other with joy over this.
Kucinich (who also was against this unwinnable war from the beginning) has some ideas that sound good to me, if the UN would cooperate. Hillary Clinton came up with a proposal which would leave some troops there. The Senate is working on a provision to the funding for the war, but we do not know if the President will veto it.
If we pull everybody out now, or at least within a year (which is what I would like to see) will Iraq implode with sectarian fighting, and fall upon itself like a bunch of dominoes?
Well, it's likely. But the status quo does not look good.
Iraqis are dying, and our young people are dying, but progress is still eluding us.
Much has been said about concentrating on the borders, in terms of keeping the instability from spreading. I dunno.
I do not have any concrete answers. What I hope for is to reduce our presence there, work towards global reconciliation, and, with the UN's help, build an international peacekeeping force.
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#55
Hindsight is usually 20/20. Whenever the budding experts on international affairs on here tire of rehashing the obvious, what I would like to know is, what do we do now? Please be specific, and feel free to forward your ideas to the 2008 candidates...I looked at most of the major players websites yesterday on both sides of the aisle, and other than Kucinich (ok, not a major player but a fun read) and McCain, the others are pretty vague.

Happy Easter wishes all around from chilly, damp New Orleans.😀
You may not have been around, but Bush Sr. didn't send the Army up to Baghdad in the first Gulf War, because the prevailing wisdom was Iraq would be destabilized like the Balkans. It was openly discussed in the media. Regarding Bush Sr., he was merely following the Carter Doctrine which was, in effect, don't mess with the Persian Gulf. These were two wise Presidents. Regarding what we do now, see Korea. We're stuck! Like that option?? Another angry redneck President put us in that fight too! Remember the Truman Doctrine from history class? Reads like neo-con playbook, just substitute terrorists for communists. We will fight communists/terrorists anywhere in the world. 50 year stalemate in Korea, Vietnam War, and now we are set up for a lengthy stay in Oilville, the lie being we were fighting terrorists, and promoting democracy.
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#56
You may not have been around, but Bush Sr. didn't send the Army up to Baghdad in the first Gulf War, because the prevailing wisdom was Iraq would be destabilized like the Balkans. It was openly discussed in the media. Regarding Bush Sr., he was merely following the Carter Doctrine which was, in effect, don't mess with the Persian Gulf. These were two wise Presidents. Regarding what we do now, see Korea. We're stuck! Like that option?? Another angry redneck President put us in that fight too! Remember the Truman Doctrine from history class? Reads like neo-con playbook, just substitute terrorists for communists. We will fight communists/terrorists anywhere in the world. 50 year stalemate in Korea, Vietnam War, and now we are set up for a lengthy stay in Oilville, the lie being we were fighting terrorists, and promoting democracy.

So what do we do (aside from ditching our cars in favor of bicycles and such, of course)?
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#57
it was at your house, sorry about the broken bong.

You damn hippies have no respect for my property;-)
30gAy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#58
I'm headed out for cocktails, dinner and cocktails. You all keep high fiving each other like you do at the frisbee golf tournaments and love-ins and I'll try to get around to decimating your moonbat arguments after Easter.

Yes, drink until you feel you are 'brilliant'.

Why do I have the feeling that your idea of decimating is going to be characterized by

1) Reminding us of your 'brilliance'
2) Lobbing insults at others

...all capped off with a poorly written diatribe speckled with vague and completely irrelevant cultural and historical references.

That isn't so much the sound of high-fives you hear but folks slapping their foreheads in amazement at watching someone's ego write checks his intelligence can't cash.

By all means, surprise me.
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#59
Hindsight is usually 20/20. Whenever the budding experts on international affairs on here tire of rehashing the obvious, what I would like to know is, what do we do now? Please be specific, and feel free to forward your ideas to the 2008 candidates...I looked at most of the major players websites yesterday on both sides of the aisle, and other than Kucinich (ok, not a major player but a fun read) and McCain, the others are pretty vague.

Happy Easter wishes all around from chilly, damp New Orleans.😀

Skunky, of course the candidates are vague right now. Asking someone to come up with a definitive plan at this stage of their campaigns would be political death at this point. It's like asking someone to take a tangled ball of string that's had glue added to it, and asking them to unwind with their teeth. :idontno:

Yes, drink until you feel you are 'brilliant'.

Why do I have the feeling that your idea of decimating is going to be characterized by

1) Reminding us of your 'brilliance'
2) Lobbing insults at others

...all capped off with a poorly written diatribe speckled with vague and completely irrelevant cultural and historical references.

That isn't so much the sound of high-fives you hear but folks slapping their foreheads in amazement at watching someone's ego write checks his intelligence can't cash.

By all means, surprise me.

:lolabove: :floor:

Here is an interesting article:
Insider: Missteps Soured Iraqis on U.S.
By CHARLES J. HANLEY, AP Special Correspondent

document.write(getElapsed("20070409T060853Z"));6 hours agoUPDATED 5 HOURS 9 MINUTES AGO
NEW YORK - In a rueful reflection on what might have been, an Iraqi government insider details in 500 pages the U.S. occupation's "shocking" mismanagement of his country _ a performance so bad, he writes, that by 2007 Iraqis had "turned their backs on their would-be liberators."
"The corroded and corrupt state of Saddam was replaced by the corroded, inefficient, incompetent and corrupt state of the new order," Ali A. Allawi concludes in "The Occupation of Iraq," newly published by Yale University Press.
Allawi writes with authority as a member of that "new order," having served as Iraq's trade, defense and finance minister at various times since 2003. As a former academic, at Oxford University before the U.S.-British invasion of Iraq, he also writes with unusual detachment.
The U.S.- and British-educated engineer and financier is the first senior Iraqi official to look back at book length on his country's four-year ordeal. It's an unsparing look at failures both American and Iraqi, an account in which the word "ignorance" crops up repeatedly.
First came the "monumental ignorance" of those in Washington pushing for war in 2002 without "the faintest idea" of Iraq's realities. "More perceptive people knew instinctively that the invasion of Iraq would open up the great fissures in Iraqi society," he writes.
What followed was the "rank amateurism and swaggering arrogance" of the occupation, under L. Paul Bremer's Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), which took big steps with little consultation with Iraqis, steps Allawi and many others see as blunders:
_ The Americans disbanded Iraq's army, which Allawi said could have helped quell a rising insurgency in 2003. Instead, hundreds of thousands of demobilized, angry men became a recruiting pool for the resistance.
_ Purging tens of thousands of members of toppled President Saddam Hussein's Baath party _ from government, school faculties and elsewhere _ left Iraq short on experienced hands at a crucial time.
_ An order consolidating decentralized bank accounts at the Finance Ministry bogged down operations of Iraq's many state-owned enterprises.
_ The CPA's focus on private enterprise allowed the "commercial gangs" of Saddam's day to monopolize business.
_ Its free-trade policy allowed looted Iraqi capital equipment to be spirited away across borders.
_ The CPA perpetuated Saddam's fuel subsidies, selling gasoline at giveaway prices and draining the budget.
In his 2006 memoir of the occupation, Bremer wrote that senior U.S. generals wanted to recall elements of the old Iraqi army in 2003, but were rebuffed by the Bush administration. Bremer complained generally that his authority was undermined by Washington's "micromanagement."
Although Allawi, a cousin of Ayad Allawi, Iraq's prime minister in 2004, is a member of a secularist Shiite Muslim political grouping, his well-researched book betrays little partisanship.
On U.S. reconstruction failures _ in electricity, health care and other areas documented by Washington's own auditors _ Allawi writes that the Americans' "insipid retelling of `success' stories" merely hid "the huge black hole that lay underneath."
For their part, U.S. officials have often largely blamed Iraq's explosive violence for the failures of reconstruction and poor governance.
The author has been instrumental since 2005 in publicizing extensive corruption within Iraq's "new order," including an $800-million Defense Ministry scandal. Under Saddam, he writes, the secret police kept would-be plunderers in check better than the U.S. occupiers have done.
As 2007 began, Allawi concludes, "America's only allies in Iraq were those who sought to manipulate the great power to their narrow advantage. It might have been otherwise."
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Edited

30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#60
Skunky, of course the candidates are vague right now. Asking someone to come up with a definitive plan at this stage of their campaigns would be political death at this point. It's like asking someone to take a tangled ball of string that's had glue added to it, and asking them to unwind with their teeth. :idontno:

Why would it be political death? Every Democrat candidate is blasting the war effort but offering no solutions. Scratch that, Kucinich is clear on what he would do. I am puzzled why they can have definitive plans on taxes, healthcare, social safety nets but are adrift in focus groups when it comes to the (in my opinion) most pressing issue of the day:idontno:
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#61
Here is an interesting article:
Insider: Missteps Soured Iraqis on U.S.
By CHARLES J. HANLEY, AP Special Correspondent

document.write(getElapsed("20070409T060853Z"));6 hours agoUPDATED 5 HOURS 9 MINUTES AGO
NEW YORK - In a rueful reflection on what might have been, an Iraqi government insider details in 500 pages the U.S. occupation's "shocking" mismanagement of his country _ a performance so bad, he writes, that by 2007 Iraqis had "turned their backs on their would-be liberators."
"The corroded and corrupt state of Saddam was replaced by the corroded, inefficient, incompetent and corrupt state of the new order," Ali A. Allawi concludes in "The Occupation of Iraq," newly published by Yale University Press.
Allawi writes with authority as a member of that "new order," having served as Iraq's trade, defense and finance minister at various times since 2003. As a former academic, at Oxford University before the U.S.-British invasion of Iraq, he also writes with unusual detachment.
The U.S.- and British-educated engineer and financier is the first senior Iraqi official to look back at book length on his country's four-year ordeal. It's an unsparing look at failures both American and Iraqi, an account in which the word "ignorance" crops up repeatedly.
First came the "monumental ignorance" of those in Washington pushing for war in 2002 without "the faintest idea" of Iraq's realities. "More perceptive people knew instinctively that the invasion of Iraq would open up the great fissures in Iraqi society," he writes.
What followed was the "rank amateurism and swaggering arrogance" of the occupation, under L. Paul Bremer's Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), which took big steps with little consultation with Iraqis, steps Allawi and many others see as blunders:
_ The Americans disbanded Iraq's army, which Allawi said could have helped quell a rising insurgency in 2003. Instead, hundreds of thousands of demobilized, angry men became a recruiting pool for the resistance.
_ Purging tens of thousands of members of toppled President Saddam Hussein's Baath party _ from government, school faculties and elsewhere _ left Iraq short on experienced hands at a crucial time.
_ An order consolidating decentralized bank accounts at the Finance Ministry bogged down operations of Iraq's many state-owned enterprises.
_ The CPA's focus on private enterprise allowed the "commercial gangs" of Saddam's day to monopolize business.
_ Its free-trade policy allowed looted Iraqi capital equipment to be spirited away across borders.
_ The CPA perpetuated Saddam's fuel subsidies, selling gasoline at giveaway prices and draining the budget.
In his 2006 memoir of the occupation, Bremer wrote that senior U.S. generals wanted to recall elements of the old Iraqi army in 2003, but were rebuffed by the Bush administration. Bremer complained generally that his authority was undermined by Washington's "micromanagement."
Although Allawi, a cousin of Ayad Allawi, Iraq's prime minister in 2004, is a member of a secularist Shiite Muslim political grouping, his well-researched book betrays little partisanship.
On U.S. reconstruction failures _ in electricity, health care and other areas documented by Washington's own auditors _ Allawi writes that the Americans' "insipid retelling of `success' stories" merely hid "the huge black hole that lay underneath."
For their part, U.S. officials have often largely blamed Iraq's explosive violence for the failures of reconstruction and poor governance.
The author has been instrumental since 2005 in publicizing extensive corruption within Iraq's "new order," including an $800-million Defense Ministry scandal. Under Saddam, he writes, the secret police kept would-be plunderers in check better than the U.S. occupiers have done.
As 2007 began, Allawi concludes, "America's only allies in Iraq were those who sought to manipulate the great power to their narrow advantage. It might have been otherwise."
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.[/QUOTE]

Mango, this article makes my point. Pointing out that there were huge mistakes made in the campaign is pointing out the painfully obvious. So again, what do we do now? That is all that matters at this point.
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#62
Well let?s first realize that there are no clean solutions to Iraq. All the options available are ugly and I don?t make any claims that my suggestion isn?t full of holes ?but here?s the best I can come up with.

The US should reinstate the Sunni dominated government of pre-invasion Iraq:

-Not the former top tier officials but all the civil servants who know how to actually run the country.
-Reinstate the Sunni dominated Armed Forces of Iraq.
-We ?pay off? this new government to the tune of 5-12 billion a year so they will act in American interests. This is similar to the existing US relationship with Egypt. They don?t challenge our regional interests and we get to base forces at one or two key bases in country to maintain a regional military presence. The new gov?t officials will be fat and happy with American dollars and will work aggressively to maintain the status quo.
-We turn a blind eye to the ugly reality of how the new Sunni gov?t re-instates order in the country.
-The Kurdish area of northern Iraq should not be placed under this new gov?t.- it should remain an autonomous region within Iraq with an eventual goal of establishing an independent Kurdistan. This will require delicate negotiations with Turkey (who have a substantial Kurdish minority of their own) and so the US should throw support for Turkish entry into the EU as a ?sweetner? for ending Ankara?s opposition to a free Kurdish state on their border.


The key flaw in this plan is that it is likely only going to work in the short term. It produces yet another round of violence and oppression by a US-supported regime and forces us to meddle in the affairs of a middle eastern country, yet again. And so, phase II of my plan would be

The US should move aggressively and methodically towards energy independence.

-Most fossil fuels are projected to run out within a generation, (see figures below)
Years of production left in the ground with the most optimistic reserve estimates (Oil & Gas Journal, World Oil)
  • Oil: 1,277,702/77/365= 32 years
  • Gas: 1,239,000/47/365= 72 years
  • Coal: 4,786,000/52/365= 252 years

And so we are going to be facing this task anyway; lets start early and allow ourselves to extricate the US from the nasty necessity of meddling in Mid-East affairs as an bonus.

And finally, since Afghanistan is the true festering, open sore of international terrorism-

The US should re-energize its commitment to re-build Afghanistan.
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#63
Uncle Timmy, How about the "We are Stuck". option I see playing out. Those creating this mess now cry out "what's your solution?" as a defense to the continued occupation. We may move our troops around geograhically in the neighborhood, but for all practical purposes, we are stuck in that region for the long haul. Half our country prefers this, as they think the status quo is manageable through force. Too bad it may take 4-5 dollar gas to move us off our spoiled rear ends, but we have set ourselves up for this quandry.
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#64
Oh and I?ll add Part IV to my plan.

In order to quickly reduce the enormous amount of anti-American sentiment in the region (again, I believe we can not risk the overthrow of the pro-American regimes) I would shift US policy on the Arab-Israeli conflict.

-Endorse the Saudi Peace Proposal, which in effect the Arab countries offer Israel a full peace in exchange for a withdrawl to 1967 borders.

-Make clear the International Community?s commitment to this peace plan and to buffer the somewhat weakened military position it puts Israel by allowing Israel admission into NATO.

-Allow the creation of a Palestinian state.

-End the expansion of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories. Allow existing settlements to remain, but under Palestinian authority. (under strict security guarantees). This is a tough part of the plan, but millions of Arabs live within Israel so a million or so Israelis can live within what is recognized as Palestine.

-Palestinians will be asked to give up ?the right of return? issue in exchange for billions of dollars in US aid money.

I believe that this would go a long way to diffuse the tension in the mid-east. And, I believe it is the fair and correct policy for the US.

Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#65
Uncle Timmy, How about the "We are Stuck". option I see playing out. Those creating this mess now cry out "what's your solution?" as a defense to the continued occupation. We may move our troops around geograhically in the neighborhood, but for all practical purposes, we are stuck in that region for the long haul. Half our country prefers this, as they think the status quo is manageable through force. Too bad it may take 4-5 dollar gas to move us off our spoiled rear ends, but we have set ourselves up for this quandry.

I have a bad feeling that the status quo is quickly degenerating into status 'uh-oh'.
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#66
Oh and I?ll add Part IV to my plan.

In order to quickly reduce the enormous amount of anti-American sentiment in the region (again, I believe we can not risk the overthrow of the pro-American regimes) I would shift US policy on the Arab-Israeli conflict.

-Endorse the Saudi Peace Proposal, which in effect the Arab countries offer Israel a full peace in exchange for a withdrawl to 1967 borders.

-Make clear the International Community?s commitment to this peace plan and to buffer the somewhat weakened military position it puts Israel by allowing Israel admission into NATO.

-Allow the creation of a Palestinian state.

-End the expansion of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories. Allow existing settlements to remain, but under Palestinian authority. (under strict security guarantees). This is a tough part of the plan, but millions of Arabs live within Israel so a million or so Israelis can live within what is recognized as Palestine.

-Palestinians will be asked to give up ?the right of return? issue in exchange for billions of dollars in US aid money.

I believe that this would go a long way to diffuse the tension in the mid-east. And, I believe it is the fair and correct policy for the US.

Israel is not going to do the right thing here, and may very well bomb Iran over nuclear fears. Too much hatred,religion, and money for one small area of the world!
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#67
Israel is not going to do the right thing here, and may very well bomb Iran over nuclear fears. Too much hatred,religion, and money for one small area of the world!

True, but I'm advocating a unilateral US position here.

Israel gets 1/3 of the total US foreign aid budget per year, that gives us a lot of power to dictate policy.

It is a matter of American will; based on our national interests, not Israeli wishes.

If they don't agree, I say we pull the plug on the billions of annual dollars sent to them.
Miss Kitty avatar
Meow
#68
-The Kurdish area of northern Iraq should not be placed under this new gov?t.- it should remain an autonomous region within Iraq with an eventual goal of establishing an independent Kurdistan. This will require delicate negotiations with Turkey (who have a substantial Kurdish minority of their own) and so the US should throw support for Turkish entry into the EU as a ?sweetner? for ending Ankara?s opposition to a free Kurdish state on their border.

...from Uncle Timmy

Uncle Timmy...isn't most or all of the oil in Iraq located in the north along with the Kurds?
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#69
So what do we do (aside from ditching our cars in favor of bicycles and such, of course)?
I have your answer. We sell pay per view showings of Bush vs. Iraq's best terrorist, in a no holds barred, no weapons allowed, caged fight until the death. Half of all proceeds will go back to the taxpayers of the US who are paying out of the @ss for this GWB war, and the other half goes to the citizens of Iraq to help rebuild the mess we made. Whomever survives the fight is declared the victor, and their team wins.

"Johnny, tell them what they have won!"

"Well Bob, they have won absolutely nothing."

Then we pull the troops out and go back to normal business.
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#70
I am puzzled why they can have definitive plans on taxes, healthcare, social safety nets but are adrift in focus groups when it comes to the (in my opinion) most pressing issue of the day:idontno:

Skunky, again the answer is easy -- They are all crooks.

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