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The US War - Five Years On

6thGen avatar
Beach Fanatic
12,409 views
Since the discussion is on-topic, here is an intellectually honest look at the war on terrorism. This is an article I saved from 9/12/06.

The U.S. War, Five Years On
By George Friedman

It has been five years since the Sept. 11 attacks. In thinking about the course of the war against al Qaeda, two facts emerge pre-eminent.

The first is that the war has succeeded far better than anyone would have thought on Sept. 12, 2001. We remember that day clearly, and had anyone told us that there would be no more al Qaeda attacks in the United States for at least five years, we would have been incredulous. Yet there have been no attacks.

The second fact is that the U.S. intervention in the Islamic world has not achieved its operational goals. There are multiple insurgencies under way in Iraq, and the United States does not appear to have sufficient force or strategic intent to suppress them. In Afghanistan, the Taliban has re-emerged as a powerful fighting force. It is possible that the relatively small coalition force -- a force much smaller than that fielded by the defeated Soviets in Afghanistan -- can hold it at bay, but clearly coalition troops cannot annihilate it.

A Strategic Response

The strategic goal of the United States on Sept. 12, 2001, was to prevent any further attacks within the United States. Al Qaeda, defined as the original entity that orchestrated the 1998 attacks against the U.S. embassies in Africa, the USS Cole strike and 9/11, has been thrown into disarray and has been unable to mount a follow-on attack without being detected and disrupted. Other groups, loosely linked to al Qaeda or linked only by name or shared ideology, have carried out attacks, but none have been as daring and successful as 9/11.

In response to 9/11, the United States resorted to direct overt and covert intervention throughout the Islamic world. With the first intervention, in Afghanistan, the United States and coalition forces disrupted al Qaeda's base of operations, destabilized the group and forced it on the defensive. Here also, the stage was set for a long guerrilla war that the United States cannot win with the forces available.

The invasion of Iraq, however incoherent the Bush administration's explanation of it might be, achieved two things. First, it convinced Saudi Arabia of the seriousness of American resolve and caused the Saudis to become much more aggressive in cooperating with U.S. intelligence. Second, it allowed the United States to occupy the most strategic ground in the Middle East -- bordering on Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Iran. From here, the United States was able to pose overt threats and to stage covert operations against al Qaeda. Yet by invading Iraq, the United States also set the stage for the current military crisis.

The U.S. strategy was to disrupt al Qaeda in three ways:

1. Bring the intelligence services of Muslim states -- through persuasion, intimidation or coercion -- to provide intelligence that was available only to them on al Qaeda's operations.

2. By invading Afghanistan and Iraq, use main force to disrupt al Qaeda and to intimidate and coerce Islamic states. In other words, use Operation 2 to achieve Operation 1.

3. Use the intelligence gained by these methods to conduct a range of covert operations throughout the world, including in the United States itself, to disrupt al Qaeda operations.

The problem, however, was this. The means used to compel cooperation with the intelligence services in countries such as Pakistan or Saudi Arabia involved actions that, while successful in the immediate intent, left U.S. forces exposed on a battleground where the correlation of forces, over time, ceased to favor the United States. In other words, while the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq did achieve their immediate ends and did result in effective action against al Qaeda, the outcome was to expose the U.S. forces to exhausting counterinsurgency that they were not configured to win.

Hindsight: The Search for an Ideal Strategy

The ideal outcome likely would have been to carry out the first and third operations without the second. As many would argue, an acceptable outcome would have been to carry out the Afghanistan operation without going into Iraq. This is the crux of the debate that has been raging since the Iraq invasion and that really began earlier, during the Afghan war, albeit in muted form. On the one side, the argument is that by invading Muslim countries, the United States has played into al Qaeda's hands and actually contributed to radicalization among Islamists -- and that by refraining from invasion, the Americans would have reduced the threat posed by al Qaeda. On the other side, the argument has been made that without these two invasions -- the one for direct tactical reasons, the other for psychological and political reasons -- al Qaeda would be able to operate securely and without effective interference from U.S. intelligence and that, therefore, these invasions were the price to be paid.

There are three models, then, that have been proposed as ideals:

1. The United States should have invaded neither Afghanistan nor Iraq, but instead should have relied entirely on covert measures (with various levels of restraint suggested) to defeat al Qaeda.

2. The United States should have invaded Afghanistan to drive out al Qaeda and disrupt the organization, but should not have invaded Iraq.

3. The United States needed to invade both Iraq and Afghanistan -- the former for strategic reasons and to intimidate key players, the latter to disrupt al Qaeda operations and its home base.

It is interesting to pause and consider that the argument is rarely this clear-cut. Those arguing for Option 1 rarely explain how U.S. covert operations would be carried out, and frequently oppose those operations as well. Those who make the second argument fail to explain how, given that the command cell of al Qaeda had escaped Afghanistan, the United States would continue the war -- or more precisely, where the Americans would get the intelligence to fight a covert war. Those who argue for the third course -- the Bush administration -- rarely explain precisely what the strategic purpose of the war was.

In fact, 9/11 created a logic that drove the U.S. responses. Before any covert war could be launched, al Qaeda's operational structure had to be disrupted -- at the very least, to buy time before another attack. Therefore, an attack in Afghanistan had to come first (and did, commencing about a month after 9/11). Calling this an invasion, of course, would be an error: The United States borrowed forces from Russian and Iranian allies in Afghanistan -- and that, coupled with U.S. air power, forced the Taliban out of the cities to disperse, regroup and restart the war later.

Covert War and a Logical Progression

The problem that the United States had with commencing covert operations against al Qaeda was weakness in its intelligence system. To conduct a covert war, you must have excellent intelligence -- and U.S. intelligence on al Qaeda in the wake of 9/11 was not good enough to sustain a global covert effort. The best intelligence on al Qaeda, simply given the nature of the group as well as its ideology, was in the hands of the Pakistanis and the Saudis. At the very least, Islamic governments were more likely to have accumulated the needed intelligence than the CIA was.

The issue was in motivating these governments to cooperate with the U.S. effort. The Saudis in particular were dubious about U.S. will, given previous decades of behavior. Officials in Riyadh frankly were more worried about al Qaeda's behavior within Saudi Arabia if they collaborated with the Americans than they were about the United States acting resolutely. Recall that the Saudis asked U.S. forces to leave Saudi Arabia after 9/11. Changing the kingdom's attitude was a necessary precursor to waging the covert war, just as Afghanistan was a precursor to changing attitudes in Pakistan.

Invading Iraq was a way for the United States to demonstrate will, while occupying strategic territory to bring further pressure against countries like Syria. It was also a facilitator for a global covert war. The information the Saudis started to provide after the U.S. invasion was critical in disrupting al Qaeda operations. And the Saudis did, in fact, pay the price for collaboration: Al Qaeda rose up against the regime, staging its first attack in the kingdom in May 2003, and was repressed.

In this sense, we can see a logical progression. Invading Afghanistan disrupted al Qaeda operations there and forced Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to step up cooperation with the United States. Invading Iraq reshaped Saudi thinking and put the United States in a position to pressure neighboring countries. The two moves together increased U.S. intelligence capabilities decisively and allowed it to disrupt al Qaeda.

But it also placed U.S. forces in a strategically difficult position. Any U.S. intervention in Asia, it has long been noted, places the United States at a massive disadvantage. U.S. troops inevitably will be outnumbered. They also will be fighting on an enemy's home turf, far away from everything familiar and comfortable. If forced into a political war, in which the enemy combatants use the local populace to hide themselves -- and if that populace is itself hostile to the Americans -- the results can be extraordinarily unpleasant. Thus, the same strategy that allowed the United States to disrupt al Qaeda also placed U.S. forces in strategically difficult positions in two theaters of operation.

Mission Creep and Crisis

The root problem was that the United States did not crisply define the mission in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Obviously, the immediate purpose was to create an environment in which al Qaeda was disrupted and the intelligence services of Muslim states felt compelled to cooperate with the United States. But by revising the mission upward -- from achieving these goals to providing security to rooting out Baathism and the Taliban, then to providing security against insurgents and even to redefining these two societies as democracies -- the United States overreached. The issue was not whether democracy is desirable; the issue was whether the United States had sufficient forces at hand to reshape Iraqi and Afghan societies in the face of resistance.

If the Americans had not at first expected resistance, they certainly discovered that they were facing it shortly after taking control of the major cities of each country. At that moment, they had to make a basic decision between pursuing the United States' own interests or defining the interest as transforming Afghan and Iraqi society. At the moment Washington chose transformation, it had launched into a task it could not fulfill -- or, if it could fulfill it, would be able to do so only with enormously more force than it placed in either country. When we consider that 300,000 Soviet troops could not subdue Afghanistan, we get a sense of how large a force would have been needed.

The point here is this: The means used by the United States to cripple al Qaeda also created a situation that was inherently dangerous to the United States. Unless the mission had been parsed precisely -- with the United States doing what it needed to do to disrupt al Qaeda but not overreaching itself -- the outcome would be what we see now. It is, of course, easy to say that the United States should have intervened, achieved its goals and left each country in chaos; it is harder to do. Nevertheless, the United States intervened, did not leave the countries and still has chaos. That can be said with hindsight. Acting so callously with foresight is more difficult.

There remains the question of whether the United States could have crippled al Qaeda without invading Iraq -- a move that still would have left Afghanistan in its current state, but which would seem to have been better than the situation now at hand. The answer to that question rests on two elements. First, it is simply not clear that the Saudis' appreciation of the situation, prior to March 2003, would have moved them to cooperate, and extensive diplomacy over the subject prior to the invasion had left the Americans reasonably convinced that the Saudis could do more. Advocates of diplomacy would have to answer the question of what more the United States could have done on that score. Now, perhaps, over time the United States could have developed its own intelligence sources within al Qaeda. But time was exactly what the United States did not have.

But most important, the U.S. leadership underestimated the consequences of an invasion. They set their goals as high as they did because they did not believe that the Iraqis would resist -- and when resistance began, they denied that it involved anything more than the ragtag remnants of the old regime. Their misreading of Iraq was compounded with an extraordinary difficulty in adjusting their thinking as reality unfolded.

But even without the administration's denial, we can see in hindsight that the current crisis was hardwired into the strategy. If the United States wanted to destroy al Qaeda, it had to do things that would suck it into the current situation -- unless it was enormously skilled and nimble, which it certainly was not. In the end, the primary objective -- defending the homeland -- was won at the cost of trying to achieve goals in Iraq and Afghanistan that cannot be achieved.

In the political debate that is raging today in the United States, our view is that both sides are quite wrong. The administration's argument for building democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan misses the point that the United States cannot be successful in this, because it lacks the force to carry out the mission. The administration's critics, who argue that Iraq particularly diverted attention from fighting al Qaeda, fail to appreciate the complex matrix of relationships the United States was trying to adjust with its invasion of Iraq.

The administration is incapable of admitting that it has overreached and led U.S. forces into an impossible position. Its critics fail to understand the intricate connections between the administration's various actions and the failure of al Qaeda to strike inside the United States for five years.

Replies

242
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#77
Scary, but this is an all Uncle Timmy generated plan.

Well, at least the overall plan. I have listened to various proposals, ie the Saudi Peace Proposal and added them in to what I think is my best take on where to go from here.

Please don't think I'm happy about a lot of what I am proposing. Re-installing the Sunni run civil service and military has some VERY ugly consequences, but it is a statement on how bad the current situation and the scale of the problem Bush has gotten us into.
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#78
Hey, you are the one who threw her hat into the Presidential contest, you owe us a plan too:funn:
I just said " I won't sit on my pit",

not "Here's my plan of attack for Iraq" :lol:
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#79
So Timmy, if we pay them to no longer terroize us, want the US Fed Gov't and therefore all US taxpayers, be considered as helping terrorists, and thereby our entire country be in breach of US Law? Sounds just like the story of the US Banana companies paying off terrorists in South America to "protect" their field workers. Practical, perhaps, but in violation of US Law. :idontno:
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#80
:roll: I didn't see you put out a plan of action Dr. Small Box.
Besides, the thread was debating Friedman's logic and there not being a major attack on US soil.

It hasn't happened yet, but believe me, they are just waiting patiently, and I did read a survey somewhere that a large percentage of American's feel it's only a matter of time. That there's a strong possibility it will be within the next 5 years.

Perhaps you should have started another thread. You've been good at that lately. 😀

Yeah, I think I have sent this thread on a bit of a tangent.

But I did start out by commenting on the Freidman article; and nothing has yet changed my mind that America's Energy-Achille's Heal represents a far greater potential threat to our national security than terrorism.

And so, the justification for Iraq, based on terrorism issues (as Freidman does) is mute if you conclude that a) Our dependance on the uninterupted flow of foreign oil is our primary national security and b) the Iraq War has destabilized and threatens the source of that oil.
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#81
So Timmy, if we pay them to no longer terroize us, want the US Fed Gov't and therefore all US taxpayers, be considered as helping terrorists, and thereby our entire country be in breach of US Law? Sounds just like the story of the US Banana companies paying off terrorists in South America to "protect" their field workers. Practical, perhaps, but in violation of US Law. :idontno:

What terrorists did I advocate paying off? Money for Palestinian or Afghani development? You would have to hold the position that ALL Palestinians or Afghanis are terrorists.

Besides, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Just look up where the money that supported the Irish Republican Army's terrorist activities against the British in Northern Ireland came from. Thank goodness England didn't have such strict laws regarding Terrorist Supporting Nations during the 70's or those Irish Catholics in Chicago would have earned the whole US on Britain's blacklist.
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#82
Yeah, I think I have sent this thread on a bit of a tangent.

But I did start out by commenting on the Freidman article; and nothing has yet changed my mind that America's Energy-Achille's Heal represents a far greater potential threat to our national security than terrorism.

And so, the justification for Iraq, based on terrorism issues (as Freidman does) is mute if you conclude that a) Our dependance on the uninterupted flow of foreign oil is our primary national security and b) the Iraq War has destabilized and threatens the source of that oil.

We're all about tangents here, and it was a excellent tangent. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge having lived in the Middle East and your plan makes sense albeit holes, but what plan doesn't?
My concern would be our 51st State Israel. Cutting off funds from them would be extremely difficult wouldn't it? :idontno:

On a side note, I just learned that US citizens can run for public office in Israel and not forego their US citizenship. :confused:
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#83
My concern would be our 51st State Israel. Cutting off funds from them would be extremely difficult wouldn't it? :idontno:
:confused:

Actually, I never lived in the middle east - I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.:rolling:



What I?m really advocating is an aggressive, hardline stance on a comprehensive peace plan between Arabs and Israelis.

If we conclude that this is in the US national interest (I believe it is) then we have to be prepared to yank every chain we?ve got. It is OUR money afterall.

My sense is that it will take a whole lot of back door threats, arm twisting, and eye gouging to get the parties to agree.

(If I were Bush, I would quietly tell both parties that either they agree to split East and West Jerusalem between the two of them and put the Old City Center under shared, or International control - or we will simply nuke the place and then NOBODY gets it. Okay, well clearly I wouldn?t really advocate that but it is kind of indicative of the sort of pressure that will be needed.)
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#84
-We ‘pay off’ this new government to the tune of 5-12 billion a year so they will act in American interests. This is similar to the existing US relationship with Egypt. They don’t challenge our regional interests and we get to base forces at one or two key bases in country to maintain a regional military presence. The new gov’t officials will be fat and happy with American dollars and will work aggressively to maintain the status quo.
-We turn a blind eye to the ugly reality of how the new Sunni gov’t re-instates order in the country.


These would be the terrorists to which I am referring. If we are paying them to not be terrorists acting against us, aren't you suggesting that they would be terrorists if we didn't pay them? :idontno:


I hear you regarding the terrorists vs freedom fighter. Now days in the US, the Gov't can hold indefinitely, anyone whom they accuse of being a terrorist. Thinking back only a few decades, many of the civil rights leaders would fall into this category of terrorists, although they were fighting for freedom. Makes me wonder a bit about the hidden loss of our freedoms as we knew them. Next thing you know, we will not be able to state our thoughts regarding the gov't or politicians.

Edited

Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#85

What I?m really advocating is an aggressive, hardline stance on a comprehensive peace plan between Arabs and Israelis.

:funn: Sorry, I just thought that statement to be funny. I think you might have better success at convincing floridagirl that you don't get AIDS from mosquitos, and that doesn't look like it will be happening in my lifetime.
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#86
Timmy,
Let me recap a few things.

I made the point that you have no idea who the Iraqi citizens blame for the problems in the country. You posted an opinion poll of American citizens that states that many Americans do not believe there was a connection between Saddam and 9/11. Um, what? That has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. As for the connection, I never said he had a connection to 9/11. I said he harbored terrorists. Again, that?s not disputed, but it?s not what we were talking about.

I pointed out that current opinion polls may not be the best way to govern and that history shows that opinion changes as perspective is added, so it?s best to do the right thing now, even if it doesn?t fly with the hippies. You pointed out three lessons that I should learn from. The first two prove that violent subjugation of intended colonies doesn?t work. You could have added the American Revolution and saved some time, but that is not the point. While the first two examples are all well and good, can you please explain what the Iraq war has to do with colonialism? For the 3rd situation, you know the Brits were never seriously attacked, and that Palestine was never the focus, right? You could use that as an example of splitting up Iraq, but I think I?m giving you a little too much credit there given your propensity for non sequiturs.

I pointed out that the numbers of MidEast oil are lower than most believe and that it is a relatively small percentage. I cited two major suppliers and showed that we don?t get much in supply from that region. You posted the actual numbers, which back up my argument, and don?t give any consideration to alternative countries making up difference. Did I miss anything?
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#87
Actually, I never lived in the middle east - I just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.:rolling:



What I?m really advocating is an aggressive, hardline stance on a comprehensive peace plan between Arabs and Israelis.

If we conclude that this is in the US national interest (I believe it is) then we have to be prepared to yank every chain we?ve got. It is OUR money afterall.

My sense is that it will take a whole lot of back door threats, arm twisting, and eye gouging to get the parties to agree.

(If I were Bush, I would quietly tell both parties that either they agree to split East and West Jerusalem between the two of them and put the Old City Center under shared, or International control - or we will simply nuke the place and then NOBODY gets it. Okay, well clearly I wouldn?t really advocate that but it is kind of indicative of the sort of pressure that will be needed.)
This will never happen, because Israel has undue influence in this country much to our detriment sometimes. Oil is the key here, as innovating our way free of foreign oil will allow us to hit the proverbial "ignore" button.
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#88
Timmy,
Let me recap a few things.

I made the point that you have no idea who the Iraqi citizens blame for the problems in the country. You posted an opinion poll of American citizens that states that many Americans do not believe there was a connection between Saddam and 9/11. Um, what? That has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. As for the connection, I never said he had a connection to 9/11. I said he harbored terrorists. Again, that?s not disputed, but it?s not what we were talking about.

I pointed out that current opinion polls may not be the best way to govern and that history shows that opinion changes as perspective is added, so it?s best to do the right thing now, even if it doesn?t fly with the hippies. You pointed out three lessons that I should learn from. The first two prove that violent subjugation of intended colonies doesn?t work. You could have added the American Revolution and saved some time, but that is not the point. While the first two examples are all well and good, can you please explain what the Iraq war has to do with colonialism? For the 3rd situation, you know the Brits were never seriously attacked, and that Palestine was never the focus, right? You could use that as an example of splitting up Iraq, but I think I?m giving you a little too much credit there given your propensity for non sequiturs.

I pointed out that the numbers of MidEast oil are lower than most believe and that it is a relatively small percentage. I cited two major suppliers and showed that we don?t get much in supply from that region. You posted the actual numbers, which back up my argument, and don?t give any consideration to alternative countries making up difference. Did I miss anything?
Uncle Timmy, there's no give and take here, but relentless baiting. 6thGen, I respect your right to not be swayed in the face of disaster.
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#89
This will never happen, because Israel has undue influence in this country much to our detriment sometimes. Oil is the key here, as innovating our way free of foreign oil will allow us to hit the proverbial "ignore" button.

Please explain Bob. My understanding is a large percentage of the funds we give Israel is for them to buy weapons from the United States.
Who has the influence in this scenario? :idontno:
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#90
These would be the terrorists to which I am referring. If we are paying them to not be terrorists acting against us, aren't you suggesting that they would be terrorists if we didn't pay them? :idontno:
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I hear you regarding the terrorists vs freedom fighter. Now days in the US, the Gov't can hold indefinitely, anyone whom they accuse of being a terrorist. Thinking back only a few decades, many of the civil rights leaders would fall into this category of terrorists, although they were fighting for freedom. Makes me wonder a bit about the hidden loss of our freedoms as we knew them. Next thing you know, we will not be able to state our thoughts regarding the gov't or politicians.

I might be wrong, but I think US citizens enjoy the legal rights granted by the Constitution unless they are enemy combatants...I know, I know, 'they' can tag anyone an enemy combatant, but I wonder how many innocent citizens have had that tag applied and whisked off to parts unknown. I am guessing not too many, but I could be wrong.
Bob avatar
SoWal Insider
#91
Please explain Bob. My understanding is a large percentage of the funds we give Israel is for them to buy weapons from the United States.
Who has the influence in this scenario? :idontno:
Mango. as usual, you are correct, it's just that I don't think the State Dept. will ever be telling Israel what to do, given the small land mass of that country, and the fact that they have been attacked repeatedly. I view the Israeli lobby in this country as a fiercely focused group, and one that does not always line up with D.C. Fortunately, Israeli citizens may be growing weary of endless conflict, and may ask their leadership to give back what was won in war. I don't know what will happen. Certainly, as in Iraq, the current situation regarding Palestine is going backwards in terms of political stability.
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#92
I might be wrong, but I think US citizens enjoy the legal rights granted by the Constitution unless they are enemy combatants...I know, I know, 'they' can tag anyone an enemy combatant, but I wonder how many innocent citizens have had that tag applied and whisked off to parts unknown. I am guessing not too many, but I could be wrong.
What is the magic number when it suddenly becomes wrong? If the gov't can use it as an excuse to hold a person for other reasons, there is a flaw in the system and our freedoms are at risk. What happens when it is used for other purposes in the future? I don't think we are smart enough to know what the future holds. Wasn't it Hitler who took up all of the arms from individuals and said that only gov't should have weapons? I see similar movements for that same thing happening right here in the USA. Maybe it wont affect you today, but what about tomorrow or the next day. Maybe they go after all of the people growing mary jane (they only want the "drug companies" to sell drugs), or abortion doctors, or human rights acitivists, or people who want to unload some truths regarding politicians. It is either right or wrong. I think it is wrong. The US Constitution and Bill of Rights call apply to all people in the USA. If a person is a legitimate threat to our citizens, let him or her stand trial. They should not be held indifinitely. The Gov't will also use their new powers to spy on fellow citizens. Although it is illegal for the CIA to do so, now the NSA has the authority to do it. Just ain't right.
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#93
Mango. as usual, you are correct, it's just that I don't think the State Dept. will ever be telling Israel what to do, given the small land mass of that country, and the fact that they have been attacked repeatedly. I view the Israeli lobby in this country as a fiercely focused group, and one that does not always line up with D.C. Fortunately, Israeli citizens may be growing weary of endless conflict, and may ask their leadership to give back what was won in war. I don't know what will happen. Certainly, as in Iraq, the current situation regarding Palestine is going backwards in terms of political stability.

I should have been clearer. I meant influence regarding UT's plan.
We do have lots of influence in our govt.

Given the amount of funds Israel receives, which BTW, is much more than 3 billion, if you count the 2 billion or so in unforgiven loans, not to mention that about 1.5 billion goes over there from private US donations (which is tax deductible and the only country we allow this with)
We have a grayt deal of influence if we demand a peace plan of sorts between the Arabs and Israel.
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#94
Timmy,

I made the point that you have no idea who the Iraqi citizens blame for the problems in the country. You posted an opinion poll of American citizens that states that many Americans do not believe there was a connection between Saddam and 9/11. Um, what? That has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. As for the connection, I never said he had a connection to 9/11. I said he harbored terrorists. Again, that?s not disputed, but it?s not what we were talking about.

OMG! You have got to be kidding with this. Do you re-read your posts?


Ok, let?s review:

Quote- Uncle Timmy:?Well your average Bush supporter had no trouble blaming the 9-11 deaths on Iraq so I?m curious as to why you feel the Iraqis will look elsewhere for someone to blame for the state of their country.?

Quote-6thGen:?Not to be condescending, even though everyone knows I am a condescending ahole, but don?t you have anything beyond anecdotes and rhetoric? If what you state is correct, and neither of us has any way of knowing, the average Bush supporter isn?t very bright. The administration never claimed that.?



I clearly said the average Bush supporter, not the Bush Administration. Whereupon I posted the Zogby poll asking the following question:

Do you agree or disagree that there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and the 9/11 terror attacks?
Republicans agreed 65%

So yes, 6thGen, the average Bush supporter did blame the 9-11 deaths on Iraq. I will let you follow thru on your last point about the intelligence of the average Bush supporter.
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#95
Bob,
Olmert is toast and have been for a while. I?m surprised he hasn?t gotten The Knesset vote of no-confidence already. Look for Israel to take a more aggressive stance before they hand over the territories with Likud and Netanyahu taking the reins and doing our dirty work soon.
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#96
I pointed out that the numbers of MidEast oil are lower than most believe and that it is a relatively small percentage. I cited two major suppliers and showed that we don?t get much in supply from that region. You posted the actual numbers, which back up my argument, and don?t give any consideration to alternative countries making up difference. Did I miss anything?

Ok, I?ll walk you thru the numbers, very slowly?.

Canada -1856 barrels a day
Saudi/Iraq/Kuwait -2262 barrels a day

Now let?s review:

Quote- 6thGen: That?s just not true. The U.S. imports about half of the oil we consume. We import the same amount of Canada that we do from all of the Middle East combined.

No, we do not import the same amount of Canadian oil as we do from all the Middle East combined.

I will let you get back to me on the point of why I posted the numbers???

I dare you to contact an economist and suggest that the loss of 1,559 thousand barrels of oil from Saudi Arabia daily is nothing to worry about.

Honestly, 6th- I am happy to debate anyone on these issues but you are really very tedious. I'm going to make a general perception about your posts and ask for others to agree or disagree.

-Your points are very incoherent. From your follow up comments it seems that you are not even sure what your original point was.



Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#97
pardon me for a moment while I go back to sticking my head into a hole the beach.
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#98
What is the magic number when it suddenly becomes wrong? If the gov't can use it as an excuse to hold a person for other reasons, there is a flaw in the system and our freedoms are at risk. What happens when it is used for other purposes in the future? I don't think we are smart enough to know what the future holds. Wasn't it Hitler who took up all of the arms from individuals and said that only gov't should have weapons? I see similar movements for that same thing happening right here in the USA. Maybe it wont affect you today, but what about tomorrow or the next day. Maybe they go after all of the people growing mary jane (they only want the "drug companies" to sell drugs), or abortion doctors, or human rights acitivists, or people who want to unload some truths regarding politicians. It is either right or wrong. I think it is wrong. The US Constitution and Bill of Rights call apply to all people in the USA. If a person is a legitimate threat to our citizens, let him or her stand trial. They should not be held indifinitely. The Gov't will also use their new powers to spy on fellow citizens. Although it is illegal for the CIA to do so, now the NSA has the authority to do it. Just ain't right.

Oh, come on SJ, we both know the Feds aren't throwing Americans in the clink for growing pot, performing abortions, for being a loudmouth, etc.
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#99
OK, I will keep it simple. What in the hell does Bush supporters' opinion on Saddam and 9/11 have to do with who Iraqis blame for their problems?
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#100
Oh, come on SJ, we both know the Feds aren't throwing Americans in the clink for growing pot, performing abortions, for being a loudmouth, etc.
maybe not yet... but my point is that we don't know about the future, although we have given them permission to abuse the system at any time they want to do so. ;-)
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#101
maybe not yet... but my point is that we don't know about the future, although we have given them permission to abuse the system at any time they want to do so. ;-)

I feel pretty certain that as long as your name isn't Smiling Mohammed al JOe, you don't have an expired visa and you don't regularly wire thousands of dollars into Syria, you will be left alone. You can even keep your guns!:cool:

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