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The US War - Five Years On

6thGen avatar
Beach Fanatic
12,409 views
Since the discussion is on-topic, here is an intellectually honest look at the war on terrorism. This is an article I saved from 9/12/06.

The U.S. War, Five Years On
By George Friedman

It has been five years since the Sept. 11 attacks. In thinking about the course of the war against al Qaeda, two facts emerge pre-eminent.

The first is that the war has succeeded far better than anyone would have thought on Sept. 12, 2001. We remember that day clearly, and had anyone told us that there would be no more al Qaeda attacks in the United States for at least five years, we would have been incredulous. Yet there have been no attacks.

The second fact is that the U.S. intervention in the Islamic world has not achieved its operational goals. There are multiple insurgencies under way in Iraq, and the United States does not appear to have sufficient force or strategic intent to suppress them. In Afghanistan, the Taliban has re-emerged as a powerful fighting force. It is possible that the relatively small coalition force -- a force much smaller than that fielded by the defeated Soviets in Afghanistan -- can hold it at bay, but clearly coalition troops cannot annihilate it.

A Strategic Response

The strategic goal of the United States on Sept. 12, 2001, was to prevent any further attacks within the United States. Al Qaeda, defined as the original entity that orchestrated the 1998 attacks against the U.S. embassies in Africa, the USS Cole strike and 9/11, has been thrown into disarray and has been unable to mount a follow-on attack without being detected and disrupted. Other groups, loosely linked to al Qaeda or linked only by name or shared ideology, have carried out attacks, but none have been as daring and successful as 9/11.

In response to 9/11, the United States resorted to direct overt and covert intervention throughout the Islamic world. With the first intervention, in Afghanistan, the United States and coalition forces disrupted al Qaeda's base of operations, destabilized the group and forced it on the defensive. Here also, the stage was set for a long guerrilla war that the United States cannot win with the forces available.

The invasion of Iraq, however incoherent the Bush administration's explanation of it might be, achieved two things. First, it convinced Saudi Arabia of the seriousness of American resolve and caused the Saudis to become much more aggressive in cooperating with U.S. intelligence. Second, it allowed the United States to occupy the most strategic ground in the Middle East -- bordering on Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Iran. From here, the United States was able to pose overt threats and to stage covert operations against al Qaeda. Yet by invading Iraq, the United States also set the stage for the current military crisis.

The U.S. strategy was to disrupt al Qaeda in three ways:

1. Bring the intelligence services of Muslim states -- through persuasion, intimidation or coercion -- to provide intelligence that was available only to them on al Qaeda's operations.

2. By invading Afghanistan and Iraq, use main force to disrupt al Qaeda and to intimidate and coerce Islamic states. In other words, use Operation 2 to achieve Operation 1.

3. Use the intelligence gained by these methods to conduct a range of covert operations throughout the world, including in the United States itself, to disrupt al Qaeda operations.

The problem, however, was this. The means used to compel cooperation with the intelligence services in countries such as Pakistan or Saudi Arabia involved actions that, while successful in the immediate intent, left U.S. forces exposed on a battleground where the correlation of forces, over time, ceased to favor the United States. In other words, while the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq did achieve their immediate ends and did result in effective action against al Qaeda, the outcome was to expose the U.S. forces to exhausting counterinsurgency that they were not configured to win.

Hindsight: The Search for an Ideal Strategy

The ideal outcome likely would have been to carry out the first and third operations without the second. As many would argue, an acceptable outcome would have been to carry out the Afghanistan operation without going into Iraq. This is the crux of the debate that has been raging since the Iraq invasion and that really began earlier, during the Afghan war, albeit in muted form. On the one side, the argument is that by invading Muslim countries, the United States has played into al Qaeda's hands and actually contributed to radicalization among Islamists -- and that by refraining from invasion, the Americans would have reduced the threat posed by al Qaeda. On the other side, the argument has been made that without these two invasions -- the one for direct tactical reasons, the other for psychological and political reasons -- al Qaeda would be able to operate securely and without effective interference from U.S. intelligence and that, therefore, these invasions were the price to be paid.

There are three models, then, that have been proposed as ideals:

1. The United States should have invaded neither Afghanistan nor Iraq, but instead should have relied entirely on covert measures (with various levels of restraint suggested) to defeat al Qaeda.

2. The United States should have invaded Afghanistan to drive out al Qaeda and disrupt the organization, but should not have invaded Iraq.

3. The United States needed to invade both Iraq and Afghanistan -- the former for strategic reasons and to intimidate key players, the latter to disrupt al Qaeda operations and its home base.

It is interesting to pause and consider that the argument is rarely this clear-cut. Those arguing for Option 1 rarely explain how U.S. covert operations would be carried out, and frequently oppose those operations as well. Those who make the second argument fail to explain how, given that the command cell of al Qaeda had escaped Afghanistan, the United States would continue the war -- or more precisely, where the Americans would get the intelligence to fight a covert war. Those who argue for the third course -- the Bush administration -- rarely explain precisely what the strategic purpose of the war was.

In fact, 9/11 created a logic that drove the U.S. responses. Before any covert war could be launched, al Qaeda's operational structure had to be disrupted -- at the very least, to buy time before another attack. Therefore, an attack in Afghanistan had to come first (and did, commencing about a month after 9/11). Calling this an invasion, of course, would be an error: The United States borrowed forces from Russian and Iranian allies in Afghanistan -- and that, coupled with U.S. air power, forced the Taliban out of the cities to disperse, regroup and restart the war later.

Covert War and a Logical Progression

The problem that the United States had with commencing covert operations against al Qaeda was weakness in its intelligence system. To conduct a covert war, you must have excellent intelligence -- and U.S. intelligence on al Qaeda in the wake of 9/11 was not good enough to sustain a global covert effort. The best intelligence on al Qaeda, simply given the nature of the group as well as its ideology, was in the hands of the Pakistanis and the Saudis. At the very least, Islamic governments were more likely to have accumulated the needed intelligence than the CIA was.

The issue was in motivating these governments to cooperate with the U.S. effort. The Saudis in particular were dubious about U.S. will, given previous decades of behavior. Officials in Riyadh frankly were more worried about al Qaeda's behavior within Saudi Arabia if they collaborated with the Americans than they were about the United States acting resolutely. Recall that the Saudis asked U.S. forces to leave Saudi Arabia after 9/11. Changing the kingdom's attitude was a necessary precursor to waging the covert war, just as Afghanistan was a precursor to changing attitudes in Pakistan.

Invading Iraq was a way for the United States to demonstrate will, while occupying strategic territory to bring further pressure against countries like Syria. It was also a facilitator for a global covert war. The information the Saudis started to provide after the U.S. invasion was critical in disrupting al Qaeda operations. And the Saudis did, in fact, pay the price for collaboration: Al Qaeda rose up against the regime, staging its first attack in the kingdom in May 2003, and was repressed.

In this sense, we can see a logical progression. Invading Afghanistan disrupted al Qaeda operations there and forced Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to step up cooperation with the United States. Invading Iraq reshaped Saudi thinking and put the United States in a position to pressure neighboring countries. The two moves together increased U.S. intelligence capabilities decisively and allowed it to disrupt al Qaeda.

But it also placed U.S. forces in a strategically difficult position. Any U.S. intervention in Asia, it has long been noted, places the United States at a massive disadvantage. U.S. troops inevitably will be outnumbered. They also will be fighting on an enemy's home turf, far away from everything familiar and comfortable. If forced into a political war, in which the enemy combatants use the local populace to hide themselves -- and if that populace is itself hostile to the Americans -- the results can be extraordinarily unpleasant. Thus, the same strategy that allowed the United States to disrupt al Qaeda also placed U.S. forces in strategically difficult positions in two theaters of operation.

Mission Creep and Crisis

The root problem was that the United States did not crisply define the mission in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Obviously, the immediate purpose was to create an environment in which al Qaeda was disrupted and the intelligence services of Muslim states felt compelled to cooperate with the United States. But by revising the mission upward -- from achieving these goals to providing security to rooting out Baathism and the Taliban, then to providing security against insurgents and even to redefining these two societies as democracies -- the United States overreached. The issue was not whether democracy is desirable; the issue was whether the United States had sufficient forces at hand to reshape Iraqi and Afghan societies in the face of resistance.

If the Americans had not at first expected resistance, they certainly discovered that they were facing it shortly after taking control of the major cities of each country. At that moment, they had to make a basic decision between pursuing the United States' own interests or defining the interest as transforming Afghan and Iraqi society. At the moment Washington chose transformation, it had launched into a task it could not fulfill -- or, if it could fulfill it, would be able to do so only with enormously more force than it placed in either country. When we consider that 300,000 Soviet troops could not subdue Afghanistan, we get a sense of how large a force would have been needed.

The point here is this: The means used by the United States to cripple al Qaeda also created a situation that was inherently dangerous to the United States. Unless the mission had been parsed precisely -- with the United States doing what it needed to do to disrupt al Qaeda but not overreaching itself -- the outcome would be what we see now. It is, of course, easy to say that the United States should have intervened, achieved its goals and left each country in chaos; it is harder to do. Nevertheless, the United States intervened, did not leave the countries and still has chaos. That can be said with hindsight. Acting so callously with foresight is more difficult.

There remains the question of whether the United States could have crippled al Qaeda without invading Iraq -- a move that still would have left Afghanistan in its current state, but which would seem to have been better than the situation now at hand. The answer to that question rests on two elements. First, it is simply not clear that the Saudis' appreciation of the situation, prior to March 2003, would have moved them to cooperate, and extensive diplomacy over the subject prior to the invasion had left the Americans reasonably convinced that the Saudis could do more. Advocates of diplomacy would have to answer the question of what more the United States could have done on that score. Now, perhaps, over time the United States could have developed its own intelligence sources within al Qaeda. But time was exactly what the United States did not have.

But most important, the U.S. leadership underestimated the consequences of an invasion. They set their goals as high as they did because they did not believe that the Iraqis would resist -- and when resistance began, they denied that it involved anything more than the ragtag remnants of the old regime. Their misreading of Iraq was compounded with an extraordinary difficulty in adjusting their thinking as reality unfolded.

But even without the administration's denial, we can see in hindsight that the current crisis was hardwired into the strategy. If the United States wanted to destroy al Qaeda, it had to do things that would suck it into the current situation -- unless it was enormously skilled and nimble, which it certainly was not. In the end, the primary objective -- defending the homeland -- was won at the cost of trying to achieve goals in Iraq and Afghanistan that cannot be achieved.

In the political debate that is raging today in the United States, our view is that both sides are quite wrong. The administration's argument for building democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan misses the point that the United States cannot be successful in this, because it lacks the force to carry out the mission. The administration's critics, who argue that Iraq particularly diverted attention from fighting al Qaeda, fail to appreciate the complex matrix of relationships the United States was trying to adjust with its invasion of Iraq.

The administration is incapable of admitting that it has overreached and led U.S. forces into an impossible position. Its critics fail to understand the intricate connections between the administration's various actions and the failure of al Qaeda to strike inside the United States for five years.

Replies

242
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#102
OK, I will keep it simple. What in the hell does Bush supporters' opinion on Saddam and 9/11 have to do with who Iraqis blame for their problems?

The tendancy of Republicans, post 9-11 to point the finger of blame at Iraq is an example, from our own country, of how easy it is for politicians to whip up public sentiment (in a time of crisis) against all reason or evidence to the contrary.

You expressed doubt that Iraqis would blame the US for the tens of thousands of deaths in Iraq post-US invasion; given the fact that most of the violence is sectarian.

So the question isn't who actually killed who in Iraq, but who are the Sectarian leaders pointing the finger at? Who is getting the blame? And, as you originally expressed, is it all that hard to see how this is easy to shift blame, given the ease to which it was done in this country.

Please check the latest anti-American polls from Iraq if you need graphic evidence.
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#103
I feel pretty certain that as long as your name isn't Smiling Mohammed al JOe, you don't have an expired visa and you don't regularly wire thousands of dollars into Syria, you will be left alone. You can even keep your guns!:cool:
What about Smiling Bin Laden JOe?
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#104
Ok, I?ll walk you thru the numbers, very slowly?.

Canada -1856 barrels a day
Saudi/Iraq/Kuwait -2262 barrels a day

Now let?s review:

Quote- 6thGen: That?s just not true. The U.S. imports about half of the oil we consume. We import the same amount of Canada that we do from all of the Middle East combined.

No, we do not import the same amount of Canadian oil as we do from all the Middle East combined.

I will let you get back to me on the point of why I posted the numbers???

I dare you to contact an economist and suggest that the loss of 1,559 thousand barrels of oil from Saudi Arabia daily is nothing to worry about.

Honestly, 6th- I am happy to debate anyone on these issues but you are really very tedious. I'm going to make a general perception about your posts and ask for others to agree or disagree.

-Your points are very incoherent. From your follow up comments it seems that you are not even sure what your original point was.




You insinuated that we were completely reliant on MidEast oil. I said it wasn?t true, that we imported more oil from Canada than we do the entire region combined, and we only imported about half of what we consume. That was true at FYE05 numbers I found, so good work on finding new ones. Yes, a loss of several thousand barrels per day is something to worry about. Again on making jumps ? why are the Sauds going to quit shipping oil our way and how it their regime going to fall?
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#105
What about Smiling Bin Laden JOe?

Careful, I am sure 'they' are watching right now:lol:
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#106
The tendancy of Republicans, post 9-11 to point the finger of blame at Iraq is an example, from our own country, of how easy it is for politicians to whip up public sentiment (in a time of crisis) against all reason or evidence to the contrary.

So the question isn't who actually killed who in Iraq, but who are the Sectarian leaders pointing the finger at? Who is getting the blame? And, as you originally expressed, is it all that hard to see how this is easy to shift blame, given the ease to which it was done in this country.

Please check the latest anti-American polls from Iraq if you need graphic evidence.


Does not follow. As for the polls, do you honestly believe that even in the short term, Shiites and Kurds see the US as responsible for their situation? I'm sure the Sunnis do, but that is only because they were the ones removed from power. The leaders in that region have been pointing fingers at the Great Satan for years, so the anti-American polls are going to show consistency.
Smiling JOe avatar
SoWal Expert
#107
Careful, I am sure 'they' are watching right now:lol:
You know, the French once imprisoned ee cummings for improper grammer, thinking that he was sending secret code because he never capitalized any letters.

Edited

30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#108
The tendancy of Republicans, post 9-11 to point the finger of blame at Iraq is an example, from our own country, of how easy it is for politicians to whip up public sentiment (in a time of crisis) against all reason or evidence to the contrary.

You expressed doubt that Iraqis would blame the US for the tens of thousands of deaths in Iraq post-US invasion; given the fact that most of the violence is sectarian.

So the question isn't who actually killed who in Iraq, but who are the Sectarian leaders pointing the finger at? Who is getting the blame? And, as you originally expressed, is it all that hard to see how this is easy to shift blame, given the ease to which it was done in this country.

Please check the latest anti-American polls from Iraq if you need graphic evidence.


Like this one? OK, I know you will find another one someplace else 180 degree out of phase, but still, it does fly in the face of the conventional wisdom:cool:

From The Sunday TimesMarch 18, 2007

Iraqis: life is getting better
Marie Colvin
MOST Iraqis believe life is better for them now than it was under Saddam Hussein, according to a British opinion poll published today.

The survey of more than 5,000 Iraqis found the majority optimistic despite their suffering in sectarian violence since the American-led invasion four years ago this week.

One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. In Baghdad, the capital, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad. But when asked whether they preferred life under Saddam, the dictator who was executed last December, or under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, most replied that things were better for them today.

Only 27% think there is a civil war in Iraq, compared with 61% who do not, according to the survey carried out last month.

By a majority of two to one, Iraqis believe military operations now under way will disarm all militias. More than half say security will improve after a withdrawal of multinational forces.

Margaret Beckett, the foreign secretary, said the findings pointed to progress. ?There is no widespread violence in the four southern provinces and the fact that the picture is more complex than the stereotype usually portrayed is reflected in today?s poll,? she said.
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#109
You know, the French once imprisoned ee cummings for improper grammer, thinking that he was sending secret code because he never capitalized any letters.

You know how I feel about those French;-)
Jdarg avatar
SoWal Expert
#110
I am thinking how much fun this would all be with a live audience, say at Red Bar. The thread's major players could sit up front and discuss, everybody drinks, and the peanut gallery cheers at the appropriate (or the more common inappropriate) moment.:clap_1: What say y'all?
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#111
You insinuated that we were completely reliant on MidEast oil. I said it wasn?t true, that we imported more oil from Canada than we do the entire region combined, and we only imported about half of what we consume. That was true at FYE05 numbers I found, so good work on finding new ones. Yes, a loss of several thousand barrels per day is something to worry about. Again on making jumps ? why are the Sauds going to quit shipping oil our way and how it their regime going to fall?

Oh no, you're not getting off the hook that easily. Look up the numbers regarding the economic impact of 9-11.

Then look up studies that examine the projected impact of the loss of oil from the Middle East, (or just Saudi Arabia if that is easier to find).

Lets compare those numbers first and discuss the potential impact of America's Energy Achilles Heal versus Terrorism on our national security.

Then I will be happy to walk you thru a discussion about why Iraq and Bush's policies have put us at great risk.
seacliffes avatar
Beach Lover
#112
Here is some more fun:
[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePb6H-j51xE[/nomedia]
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#113
I am thinking how much fun this would all be with a live audience, say at Red Bar. The thread's major players could sit up front and discuss, everybody drinks, and the peanut gallery cheers at the appropriate (or the more common inappropriate) moment.:clap_1: What say y'all?

😱 How bout we just break out Skunky's telescope and look for the Orion Nebula. :drink2:
Jdarg avatar
SoWal Expert
#114
😱 How bout we just break out Skunky's telescope and look for the Orion Nebula. :drink2:

That thing is complicated looking.
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#115
That thing is complicated looking.

I have the same one. If you don't program in Afghanistan in it, you'll do ok. :floor:
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#116
Oh no, you're not getting off the hook that easily. Look up the numbers regarding the economic impact of 9-11.

Then look up studies that examine the projected impact of the loss of oil from the Middle East, (or just Saudi Arabia if that is easier to find).

Lets compare those numbers first and discuss the potential impact of America's Energy Achilles Heal versus Terrorism on our national security.

Then I will be happy to walk you thru a discussion about why Iraq and Bush's policies have put us at great risk.

First tell me how Bush's policies are going to force the collapse of the Saudi regime. You have yet to do that. How bout you walk me through that, professor.
Chickpea avatar
Beach Fanatic
#117
Oh and I?ll add Part IV to my plan.

In order to quickly reduce the enormous amount of anti-American sentiment in the region (again, I believe we can not risk the overthrow of the pro-American regimes) I would shift US policy on the Arab-Israeli conflict.

-Endorse the Saudi Peace Proposal, which in effect the Arab countries offer Israel a full peace in exchange for a withdrawl to 1967 borders.

-Make clear the International Community?s commitment to this peace plan and to buffer the somewhat weakened military position it puts Israel by allowing Israel admission into NATO.

-Allow the creation of a Palestinian state.

-End the expansion of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories. Allow existing settlements to remain, but under Palestinian authority. (under strict security guarantees). This is a tough part of the plan, but millions of Arabs live within Israel so a million or so Israelis can live within what is recognized as Palestine.

-Palestinians will be asked to give up ?the right of return? issue in exchange for billions of dollars in US aid money.

I believe that this would go a long way to diffuse the tension in the mid-east. And, I believe it is the fair and correct policy for the US.

Uncle Timmy,
I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point and would say that most foreign policy advisors at this juncture would agree as they HAVE to know that 'staying the course' vis-a-vis our one sided policies towards Israel continues to bring about resentment and rage in the Islamic world, and specifically in the Middle East. Helping bring about a peaceful and FAIR solution, such as the examples you state (the right of refugees which is so touchy will probably never happen and they should therefore be compensated BUT following this there should be monitoring of settlers moving in - if a Russian jew for example would like to emigrate to Israel, then it should only be allowed to happen if a palestinian refugee who also wants to return to his homeland is granted permission as well).

To answer 6th gen question about why Saudi would worry:

If the Sunnis are returned to power in Iraq it will certainly assuage the Saudis who now must be terrified of the rise of Shia power and consequently fear, as King Abdallah predicted, the Shia crescent in the mid east growing disproportionately stronger by virtue of its sheer numbers and with Iran's backing. For those of you interested in this debate, please read this article pulled last summer after devastating war in Lebanon:


July 25, 2006 The Real Challenge From the 'Shia Crescent'
by Ehsan AhrariAs Lebanon's civilian infrastructure is being destroyed by the Israeli air force and artillery, the Arab leaders are fighting their own petty "sectarian war." The first salvo of that war was fired by King Abdullah of Jordan in December 2004 when he described the emerging alliance as a "Shia crescent." He was describing the "coalition" between Iran, the Alawite-ruled Syria, Lebanon's Hezbollah, and the Syrian branch of the Hamas movement. Then President Hosni Mubarak made the controversial observation that the Shias of Iraq owe their loyalty to Iran, a comment that annoyed many in Iraq's unity government.
There is little doubt that a new political-religious fault line is developing in the Middle East. The Sunni Arabs are worried about the emergence of an Iran-Iraq nexus over the long run. These are two important countries, and their potential cooperation would at least challenge the Sunni dominance of Persian Gulf-Levant affairs. Assuming that the regime of Bashar al-Assad stays in power, Syria will also become a part of that nexus, since the ruling elite of Syria is Alawite, which is a Shia sect.
The most important aspect of this Shia crescent is the fact that Shia Islam has been open to revolutionary change. After all, there was an Islamic revolution in Iran in 1978-1979. That revolution played an extremely crucial role in politicizing the Shias of Lebanon and those of the Persian Gulf region, most importantly Bahrain, which also has a Shia majority.
Revolutionary Shia Islam has been the religion of the state of Iran. About the only real challenge the ayatollahs face these days is from the reformers, some of whom claim to prefer Western secular democracy as an alternative to the Islamic republic. However, there is no Islamic version of another revolutionary ideology to challenge the revolutionary credentials of the ayatollahs.
Sunni Islam has its own revolutionary version, the Salafi jihadists. The Salafi jihadists are at war with the existing regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and a number of other major Muslim countries. Further east, the government of Pakistan has been declared a legitimate target of these jihadists because of its close ties with the United States in the post-9/11 era. The same forces are also rampant in Afghanistan and Bangladesh. In Indonesia, the Salafi jihadists are challenging the duly elected government.
Back in the Middle East, there is a major fight brewing between the Sunni jihadists and a number of governments. Those governments are under increased pressure from the United States to democratize and even to liberalize Islam. That very suggestion puts these governments in a precarious position, because any measures to reform educational curricula are envisaged within their polities as aimed at sabotaging Islam. This perception also leads to further erosion of the legitimacy of those governments. A classic example of this growing dilemma is faced by Saudi Arabia. Egypt is also feeling the same type of pressure and related anxieties.
No clear political-military alliance is developing among the Sunni states to counter the Salafi jihadist threat. In fact, an argument can be made that the Sunni governments are confused about how proactive they ought to be in reforming their Islamic curricula without triggering the criticism from Sunni religious scholars that they are playing politics with Islam merely to appease the United States.
Shia Islam in Iran and Syria is free of such profound tensions that undermine the legitimacy of the governments. In Iraq, the legitimacy of the national unity government is not being questioned by the Shias or the Kurds. Even the Sunnis are getting over their major misgivings and are gradually cooperating with the government of Nouri al-Maliki.
As a leading Shia state, Iran's prestige in the world appears to be on the rise. It is being offered a major political-economic package by the Perm-5 Plus-1 as an enticement for abandoning its uranium enrichment program. It just attended the meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization as an observer, and is reported to be joining it in the near future. Iran's membership in that entity is important, considering the fact that both China and Russia ? two major members of the SCO ? are Iran's chief defenders in the UN Security Council, which is considering sanctions against Iran in view of its refusal to accept the aforementioned package.
The United States has agreed to initiate a dialogue with Iran on stabilizing Iraq. That dialogue has not yet started; however, the Sunni Arab states are not pleased by the fact that Iran ? a Shia state ? will be negotiating about the political stability (or the lack thereof) of Iraq with the United States, while no Sunni state is expected to be a party to such talks.
To top it all off, Iran is supposed to be playing a major role in the decision of Lebanon's Hezbollah to initiate a major conflict with Israel. It is possible that when Hezbollah guerrillas crossed into Israeli territory, kidnapping two soldiers and killing eight, they did not expect the Jewish state to unleash the kind of disproportionate response that it has. Unless the ultimate outcome of this conflict emerges in the total dismantling of Hezbollah as a military organization, Iran's alleged role in giving a green light to Hezbollah to carry out that attack will not result in a diminution of its clout in the Middle East.
Even under the worst-case scenario from the vantage point of Iran ? a major blow to Hezbollah ? that organization's popularity in the Middle East is at an all-time high. Hezbollah is perceived in the Arab streets not as a Shia organization, but as an Arab organization that can challenge mighty Israel, which no Arab state can even imagine doing.
In the post-9/11 era, when Arab self-esteem is much damaged as a result of the conquest of Iraq, when the Bush doctrine continues to hang as Damocles' sword over the head of Syria, when the Arabs see their religion under attack in the Western media, Hezbollah's gutsy and plucky decision to confront the Jewish state has, rightly or wrongly, become a source of considerable cheer.
The Sunni Arab states are wary of the long-term spill-over effect of this particular development, especially regarding Iran's ability to exploit it for its strategic purposes in its future negotiations with the United States. This is one reason why the Saudi government was so critical of Hezbollah for provoking Israel. The Saudis might have had second thoughts about their harsh comments, since they followed up by also criticizing Israel.
The real significance of the emerging Shia crescent is that it is challenging the strategic dominance of the United States in a manner that no Sunni state ever did. The only similar challenge to both the U.S. and the Sunni states is coming from Salafi forces. However, since no state is behind those forces, the real threat stemming from their activities has not yet jelled. The Shia crescent, on the contrary, carries with it the support of Iran and Syria. In that sense, it is more threatening than the Salafists to the traditional orientations of the Sunni Arab states. The United States appears a little wary of the emerging Shia crescent for the very same reason. It has been easier for Washington to co-opt the Sunni states. The rising Shia challenge appears to be too radical and too unwilling to be tamed.

Iran has been a major state in the Middle East for a long time. It is likely to remain so. In the final analysis, its gain or loss of clout and political influence will be determined by its capabilities to maneuver effectively as a major nation-state, not as a major Shia power. The Sunni Arab leaders appear to be underscoring the "Shia factor" purely as an ill-conceived political ploy.
6thGen avatar
Beach FanaticAuthor
#118
Palestinians refugees returning to their homeland? The term ?Palestinians? was used to describe Jews living in the area until the 60s. What is the ethnic difference between a Palestinian in the current sense and a Jordanian or a Syrian? Also, care to contrast the rights of Muslim citizens in Israel to Jewish citizens in neighboring states? Finally, please cite some examples of when appeasement worked in regards to Muslim states.

I know the answer, I just want Timmy to articulate it before he goes off on his banal tripe. The Sauds are best when the Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other, as the savages in that region are wont to do. However, as the left loves to point out, much of the funding for 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia, so you see what happens when the regime is left to its own. What the author barely touched on in the subject analysis is that destabilization of the region was necessary. Although we were duped by the Iranians in the beginning, we had strong reason to believe that the mess in Iraq would not be what it is, and that a secular Shiite controlled Iraq would put pressure on the ayatollah and Iran to move towards a more secular government. We still expect Iran to move left, but it is taking longer and costing more (you know, through the surge thing). As I mentioned before as a possibility, the best thing that could happen would be for The Knesset to issue a vote of no confidence in Olmert, and Likud take over and do more damage to Iran and Hezbollah. This would weaken the Shiites the way we weakened the Sunnis, although to a lesser extent. This would also let the Sauds breathe a little easier, even though they are not currently or tentatively facing real threat of overthrow and have no reason to stop shipping oil west.

As for your article, the Israel response was dictated by the bombing of Haifa more than it was by the kidnappings. Hezbollah, gutsy as your article points out, was going to keep pushing until Israel responded. Israel showed weakness, which was unprecedented, which is why Olmert is toast.
Teresa avatar
SoWal Guide
#119
oh God, you guys are really up on middle east history and politics. you are giving me a real headache! I am as limited in my middle east knowledge as our Prez. Embarrasing, but true. :blush: At least he's been there a time or two...

welcome to the Bush is an Idiot thread, may I take your lunch order, please? 😀 :lol: :razz:

okay, I'll lurk and learn.
Mango avatar
SoWal Insider
#120
Palestinians refugees returning to their homeland? The term ?Palestinians? was used to describe Jews living in the area until the 60s. .

Palestinians refers to descendants of Arabs (mostly Muslim) who inhabitated Palestine.
The United Nations definition of "Palestinian refugee" is as follows: "Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict" This definition of a refugee also covers " the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948."

Edited

Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#121
Uncle Timmy,


To answer 6th gen question about why Saudi would worry:

If the Sunnis are returned to power in Iraq it will certainly assuage the Saudis who now must be terrified of the rise of Shia power and consequently fear, as King Abdallah predicted, the Shia crescent in the mid east growing disproportionately stronger by virtue of its sheer numbers and with Iran's backing.

I would add a following note to your article Chickpea; (for everyone else?s information, I know you know this already)

Saudi Arabia?s oil reserves are not scattered throughout the country but are concentrated in the narrow region along the Persian Gulf coastline.

The two most strategically important nodes in the Saudi oil infrastructure are Abqaiq and Ras Tanura; again, both are located in the Gulf region.

In relation to your article, Saudi Arabia?s Shia minority is also located, primarily, within the Persian Gulf/oil producing region. An uncomfortable demographic fact for the Saudi government.
Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#122
I know the answer, I just want Timmy to articulate it before he goes off on his banal tripe. The Sauds are best when the Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other, as the savages in that region are wont to do.

Ignorant.

6thGen, my role here is not to hold your hand thru a course in linear logic, which self evidently ?you are lacking.

Maybe one day you will find an audience who is impressed by your grandstanding. Is your purpose here to engage in an intelligent discussion to sway other?s opinions or display your (shockingly unqualified) arrogance?

I?ve politely attempted to have a factual discussion with you only to be nagged with inaccuracies (see posts #94, and#96) and berated with your unqualified conclusions and wild generalizations.

I have never seen a poster who?s arrogance of opinion is less matched by his ability to make a coherent point to back that opinion.

And now the surprise answer to my question:

Yes, you are influencing people?s opinions on this subject- you are the best example of the kind of arrogant, full of your own opinions, ignorant attitude that got us into this mess in the first place.

Thank you for providing this service.




Uncle Timmy avatar
Beach Fanatic
#123
Like this one? OK, I know you will find another one someplace else 180 degree out of phase, but still, it does fly in the face of the conventional wisdom:cool:

Sorry Skunk, you knew it was coming??..

IRAQ POLL 2007 ​
The poll was conducted by D3 Systems for the BBC, ABC News, ARD German TV and USA Today. More than 2,000 people were questioned in more than 450 neighbourhoods and villages across all 18 provinces of Iraq between 25 February and 5 March 2007. The margin of error is + or ? 2.5%.




Q: Compared to our country as it was before the war in spring 2003, are things in Iraq overall much better now, somewhat better, about the same, somewhat worse, or much worse?
2007 ​
2005 ​
% ​
% ​
Much Better
11 ​
22 ​
Somewhat Better
27 ​
24 ​
About the Same
12 ​
13 ​
Somewhat Worse
30 ​
21 ​
Much Worse
20 ​
18 ​
Refused/don?t know
- ​
2 ​




Bdarg avatar
Beach Fanatic
#124
Ignorant.

6thGen, my role here is not to hold your hand thru a course in linear logic, which self evidently ?you are lacking.

Maybe one day you will find an audience who is impressed by your grandstanding. Is your purpose here to engage in an intelligent discussion to sway other?s opinions or display your (shockingly unqualified) arrogance?

I?ve politely attempted to have a factual discussion with you only to be nagged with inaccuracies (see posts #94, and#96) and berated with your unqualified conclusions and wild generalizations.

I have never seen a poster who?s arrogance of opinion is less matched by his ability to make a coherent point to back that opinion.

And now the surprise answer to my question:

Yes, you are influencing people?s opinions on this subject- you are the best example of the kind of arrogant, full of your own opinions, ignorant attitude that got us into this mess in the first place.

Thank you for providing this service.






:clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1: :clap_1:

Well said, Uncle Timmy.
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#125
Sorry Skunk, you knew it was coming??..

IRAQ POLL 2007 ​
The poll was conducted by D3 Systems for the BBC, ABC News, ARD German TV and USA Today. More than 2,000 people were questioned in more than 450 neighbourhoods and villages across all 18 provinces of Iraq between 25 February and 5 March 2007. The margin of error is + or ? 2.5%.




Q: Compared to our country as it was before the war in spring 2003, are things in Iraq overall much better now, somewhat better, about the same, somewhat worse, or much worse?
2007
2005
%
% ​
Much Better
11
22 ​
Somewhat Better
27
24 ​
About the Same
12
13 ​
Somewhat Worse
30
21 ​
Much Worse
20
18 ​
Refused/don?t know
-
2 ​





But my poll is more recent and has twice the power. Ahhh, screw it. By the way, I was wondering last night how well the Uncle Timmy Doctrine would have gone over at those She-yite demonstrations yesterday:lol:
30A Skunkape avatar
Skunky
#126
I am thinking how much fun this would all be with a live audience, say at Red Bar. The thread's major players could sit up front and discuss, everybody drinks, and the peanut gallery cheers at the appropriate (or the more common inappropriate) moment.:clap_1: What say y'all?

Only if BDarg constructs a bottle proof cage (ala' Blues Brothers) for those of us on the right to sit in. :funn:

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