Since the discussion is on-topic, here is an intellectually honest look at the war on terrorism. This is an article I saved from 9/12/06.
The U.S. War, Five Years On
By George Friedman
It has been five years since the Sept. 11 attacks. In thinking about the course of the war against al Qaeda, two facts emerge pre-eminent.
The first is that the war has succeeded far better than anyone would have thought on Sept. 12, 2001. We remember that day clearly, and had anyone told us that there would be no more al Qaeda attacks in the United States for at least five years, we would have been incredulous. Yet there have been no attacks.
The second fact is that the U.S. intervention in the Islamic world has not achieved its operational goals. There are multiple insurgencies under way in Iraq, and the United States does not appear to have sufficient force or strategic intent to suppress them. In Afghanistan, the Taliban has re-emerged as a powerful fighting force. It is possible that the relatively small coalition force -- a force much smaller than that fielded by the defeated Soviets in Afghanistan -- can hold it at bay, but clearly coalition troops cannot annihilate it.
A Strategic Response
The strategic goal of the United States on Sept. 12, 2001, was to prevent any further attacks within the United States. Al Qaeda, defined as the original entity that orchestrated the 1998 attacks against the U.S. embassies in Africa, the USS Cole strike and 9/11, has been thrown into disarray and has been unable to mount a follow-on attack without being detected and disrupted. Other groups, loosely linked to al Qaeda or linked only by name or shared ideology, have carried out attacks, but none have been as daring and successful as 9/11.
In response to 9/11, the United States resorted to direct overt and covert intervention throughout the Islamic world. With the first intervention, in Afghanistan, the United States and coalition forces disrupted al Qaeda's base of operations, destabilized the group and forced it on the defensive. Here also, the stage was set for a long guerrilla war that the United States cannot win with the forces available.
The invasion of Iraq, however incoherent the Bush administration's explanation of it might be, achieved two things. First, it convinced Saudi Arabia of the seriousness of American resolve and caused the Saudis to become much more aggressive in cooperating with U.S. intelligence. Second, it allowed the United States to occupy the most strategic ground in the Middle East -- bordering on Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Iran. From here, the United States was able to pose overt threats and to stage covert operations against al Qaeda. Yet by invading Iraq, the United States also set the stage for the current military crisis.
The U.S. strategy was to disrupt al Qaeda in three ways:
1. Bring the intelligence services of Muslim states -- through persuasion, intimidation or coercion -- to provide intelligence that was available only to them on al Qaeda's operations.
2. By invading Afghanistan and Iraq, use main force to disrupt al Qaeda and to intimidate and coerce Islamic states. In other words, use Operation 2 to achieve Operation 1.
3. Use the intelligence gained by these methods to conduct a range of covert operations throughout the world, including in the United States itself, to disrupt al Qaeda operations.
The problem, however, was this. The means used to compel cooperation with the intelligence services in countries such as Pakistan or Saudi Arabia involved actions that, while successful in the immediate intent, left U.S. forces exposed on a battleground where the correlation of forces, over time, ceased to favor the United States. In other words, while the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq did achieve their immediate ends and did result in effective action against al Qaeda, the outcome was to expose the U.S. forces to exhausting counterinsurgency that they were not configured to win.
Hindsight: The Search for an Ideal Strategy
The ideal outcome likely would have been to carry out the first and third operations without the second. As many would argue, an acceptable outcome would have been to carry out the Afghanistan operation without going into Iraq. This is the crux of the debate that has been raging since the Iraq invasion and that really began earlier, during the Afghan war, albeit in muted form. On the one side, the argument is that by invading Muslim countries, the United States has played into al Qaeda's hands and actually contributed to radicalization among Islamists -- and that by refraining from invasion, the Americans would have reduced the threat posed by al Qaeda. On the other side, the argument has been made that without these two invasions -- the one for direct tactical reasons, the other for psychological and political reasons -- al Qaeda would be able to operate securely and without effective interference from U.S. intelligence and that, therefore, these invasions were the price to be paid.
There are three models, then, that have been proposed as ideals:
1. The United States should have invaded neither Afghanistan nor Iraq, but instead should have relied entirely on covert measures (with various levels of restraint suggested) to defeat al Qaeda.
2. The United States should have invaded Afghanistan to drive out al Qaeda and disrupt the organization, but should not have invaded Iraq.
3. The United States needed to invade both Iraq and Afghanistan -- the former for strategic reasons and to intimidate key players, the latter to disrupt al Qaeda operations and its home base.
It is interesting to pause and consider that the argument is rarely this clear-cut. Those arguing for Option 1 rarely explain how U.S. covert operations would be carried out, and frequently oppose those operations as well. Those who make the second argument fail to explain how, given that the command cell of al Qaeda had escaped Afghanistan, the United States would continue the war -- or more precisely, where the Americans would get the intelligence to fight a covert war. Those who argue for the third course -- the Bush administration -- rarely explain precisely what the strategic purpose of the war was.
In fact, 9/11 created a logic that drove the U.S. responses. Before any covert war could be launched, al Qaeda's operational structure had to be disrupted -- at the very least, to buy time before another attack. Therefore, an attack in Afghanistan had to come first (and did, commencing about a month after 9/11). Calling this an invasion, of course, would be an error: The United States borrowed forces from Russian and Iranian allies in Afghanistan -- and that, coupled with U.S. air power, forced the Taliban out of the cities to disperse, regroup and restart the war later.
Covert War and a Logical Progression
The problem that the United States had with commencing covert operations against al Qaeda was weakness in its intelligence system. To conduct a covert war, you must have excellent intelligence -- and U.S. intelligence on al Qaeda in the wake of 9/11 was not good enough to sustain a global covert effort. The best intelligence on al Qaeda, simply given the nature of the group as well as its ideology, was in the hands of the Pakistanis and the Saudis. At the very least, Islamic governments were more likely to have accumulated the needed intelligence than the CIA was.
The issue was in motivating these governments to cooperate with the U.S. effort. The Saudis in particular were dubious about U.S. will, given previous decades of behavior. Officials in Riyadh frankly were more worried about al Qaeda's behavior within Saudi Arabia if they collaborated with the Americans than they were about the United States acting resolutely. Recall that the Saudis asked U.S. forces to leave Saudi Arabia after 9/11. Changing the kingdom's attitude was a necessary precursor to waging the covert war, just as Afghanistan was a precursor to changing attitudes in Pakistan.
Invading Iraq was a way for the United States to demonstrate will, while occupying strategic territory to bring further pressure against countries like Syria. It was also a facilitator for a global covert war. The information the Saudis started to provide after the U.S. invasion was critical in disrupting al Qaeda operations. And the Saudis did, in fact, pay the price for collaboration: Al Qaeda rose up against the regime, staging its first attack in the kingdom in May 2003, and was repressed.
In this sense, we can see a logical progression. Invading Afghanistan disrupted al Qaeda operations there and forced Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf to step up cooperation with the United States. Invading Iraq reshaped Saudi thinking and put the United States in a position to pressure neighboring countries. The two moves together increased U.S. intelligence capabilities decisively and allowed it to disrupt al Qaeda.
But it also placed U.S. forces in a strategically difficult position. Any U.S. intervention in Asia, it has long been noted, places the United States at a massive disadvantage. U.S. troops inevitably will be outnumbered. They also will be fighting on an enemy's home turf, far away from everything familiar and comfortable. If forced into a political war, in which the enemy combatants use the local populace to hide themselves -- and if that populace is itself hostile to the Americans -- the results can be extraordinarily unpleasant. Thus, the same strategy that allowed the United States to disrupt al Qaeda also placed U.S. forces in strategically difficult positions in two theaters of operation.
Mission Creep and Crisis
The root problem was that the United States did not crisply define the mission in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Obviously, the immediate purpose was to create an environment in which al Qaeda was disrupted and the intelligence services of Muslim states felt compelled to cooperate with the United States. But by revising the mission upward -- from achieving these goals to providing security to rooting out Baathism and the Taliban, then to providing security against insurgents and even to redefining these two societies as democracies -- the United States overreached. The issue was not whether democracy is desirable; the issue was whether the United States had sufficient forces at hand to reshape Iraqi and Afghan societies in the face of resistance.
If the Americans had not at first expected resistance, they certainly discovered that they were facing it shortly after taking control of the major cities of each country. At that moment, they had to make a basic decision between pursuing the United States' own interests or defining the interest as transforming Afghan and Iraqi society. At the moment Washington chose transformation, it had launched into a task it could not fulfill -- or, if it could fulfill it, would be able to do so only with enormously more force than it placed in either country. When we consider that 300,000 Soviet troops could not subdue Afghanistan, we get a sense of how large a force would have been needed.
The point here is this: The means used by the United States to cripple al Qaeda also created a situation that was inherently dangerous to the United States. Unless the mission had been parsed precisely -- with the United States doing what it needed to do to disrupt al Qaeda but not overreaching itself -- the outcome would be what we see now. It is, of course, easy to say that the United States should have intervened, achieved its goals and left each country in chaos; it is harder to do. Nevertheless, the United States intervened, did not leave the countries and still has chaos. That can be said with hindsight. Acting so callously with foresight is more difficult.
There remains the question of whether the United States could have crippled al Qaeda without invading Iraq -- a move that still would have left Afghanistan in its current state, but which would seem to have been better than the situation now at hand. The answer to that question rests on two elements. First, it is simply not clear that the Saudis' appreciation of the situation, prior to March 2003, would have moved them to cooperate, and extensive diplomacy over the subject prior to the invasion had left the Americans reasonably convinced that the Saudis could do more. Advocates of diplomacy would have to answer the question of what more the United States could have done on that score. Now, perhaps, over time the United States could have developed its own intelligence sources within al Qaeda. But time was exactly what the United States did not have.
But most important, the U.S. leadership underestimated the consequences of an invasion. They set their goals as high as they did because they did not believe that the Iraqis would resist -- and when resistance began, they denied that it involved anything more than the ragtag remnants of the old regime. Their misreading of Iraq was compounded with an extraordinary difficulty in adjusting their thinking as reality unfolded.
But even without the administration's denial, we can see in hindsight that the current crisis was hardwired into the strategy. If the United States wanted to destroy al Qaeda, it had to do things that would suck it into the current situation -- unless it was enormously skilled and nimble, which it certainly was not. In the end, the primary objective -- defending the homeland -- was won at the cost of trying to achieve goals in Iraq and Afghanistan that cannot be achieved.
In the political debate that is raging today in the United States, our view is that both sides are quite wrong. The administration's argument for building democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan misses the point that the United States cannot be successful in this, because it lacks the force to carry out the mission. The administration's critics, who argue that Iraq particularly diverted attention from fighting al Qaeda, fail to appreciate the complex matrix of relationships the United States was trying to adjust with its invasion of Iraq.
The administration is incapable of admitting that it has overreached and led U.S. forces into an impossible position. Its critics fail to understand the intricate connections between the administration's various actions and the failure of al Qaeda to strike inside the United States for five years.
Replies
242Beach FanaticAuthor
Some people may have been duped...or may have believed that what has happened in Iraq would not happen...but, thinking, educated, experienced, curious people who see the whole picture predicted exactly what has happened...
What is sad is that the people in positions of leadership (for whatever reason, and it really doesn't matter now) either allowed themselves to be duped or lead us into Iraq for reasons that are beyond comprehension.
Again, sadly, it is our military members and the Iraqi people who are paying the immediate price. It will be though, IMO, a very high price that all Americans will eventually pay, unless someone steps forward and stops this foreign policy blunder, and starts to turn America back to our historical values and standing in the world.
I hope for all our sakes, it is not already too late.
Here is something on correcting the situation.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MWE3Mjc0YWRjNzdiOTY3MzZkNWRhYWNiNGZjOGExYzE=
Beach FanaticAuthor
Ok Mango, I wanted to follow up on this point with a little more info....
From WorldPoliticsWatch.com:
?While the United States imports considerable amounts of oil from Western hemisphere suppliers such as Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela, the importance of the Middle East to the United States is that the region is host to nearly two-thirds of the world's oil reserves (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, and Kuwait alone have just over half), and that the reliable supply of Persian Gulf petroleum is crucial to the global economy.
This has been the primary strategic interest for the United States in maintaining its dominant security presence in the region, rather than the securing of oil supplies directly to the United States per se. Therefore, reducing the level of U.S. oil imports from the Middle East alone will not necessarily change the geopolitical importance of the Middle East to the United States.
Meanwhile the Middle East is forecast to increase its share of total global output. According to the IEA, about 44 percent of the world's oil produced in 2030 will come from the Middle East and North Africa, up from 35 percent in 2004. As long as the world needs oil, more of it is going to come from the Middle East.?
Th extent of our dependance on Mid-East oil also needs to filtered thru the fact that the Global economy is dependant on that oil and we are a major part of the global economy.
</SPAN></SPAN>
I completely agree.
Beach FanaticAuthor
? Dragging up, half-baked, propagandistic, self-published ?articles? (i.e. what the rest of us would call an Op-ed piece) from Neo-Conservative websites is not proof of anything other than your abundant lack of, or incapacity to perform, critical thinking.
I don't believe you have a clear understanding of the term "neo-conservative", specifically the use of the term "neo".
Beach FanaticAuthor
Interesting article. My hope is that we can find the qualified person that we need and that will actually accept the job! Of course, it will take more than just one person to solve this problem ~ an administration that would listen would be a start.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/10/AR2007041001776.html?hpid=topnews
I'd argue that the creation of the position is a sign that the administration is listening. Krauthammer noted several other signs in the article from NRO I linked.
Beach FanaticAuthor
Here is an overview of US Petroleum Trade from 1973 (oil crisis) to Dec. 2006 from the Persian Gulf and OPEC. It's almost the same amount.
Looks to me that we have ourselves in the same conundrum again, and you can not refute that the 1973 oil crisis had no impact economically on our country.
The state of the economy in the 70s was also affected by tax policy, a shaken faith in the office of the President, and government regulation. The economy does not operate in an oil vacuum.
Beach Fanatic
IMO what the Krauthammer article (and other conservative writers) seem to ignore, is that regardless of a military "victory"....without the diplomacy necessary to win the peace, all is still lost.
Who is working on the Peace? Not the President, not the State Department, remember (those who are old enough) the Peace Talks in Paris during Vietnam...back then at least someone was trying to work out a Peace Plan.
Here, we've had no War Plan other than taking down Saddam which our military did handily, but afterwards what was their mission? What is the Mission now? How does anyone know when we've won...
And, we have no Peace Plan and as far as I can tell, no one in the Administration even thinking about one....The War Czar idea: is a pathetic statement on the leadership of our country. What is the Commander in Chief if not the War Czar...and what about the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, why is he not doing war czar duty?
The incompetence of this Administration is alarming. And for those of us who have, or have had, family members in the military it is more than scary. It's bad enough they are in harms way--it's worse to know they are their under the command of an incompetent Administration. I am waiting for everyone in this country to get as outraged as many of us mothers and fathers of the troops are!:pissed:
Who is working on the Peace? Not the President, not the State Department, remember (those who are old enough) the Peace Talks in Paris during Vietnam...back then at least someone was trying to work out a Peace Plan.
Here, we've had no War Plan other than taking down Saddam which our military did handily, but afterwards what was their mission? What is the Mission now? How does anyone know when we've won...
And, we have no Peace Plan and as far as I can tell, no one in the Administration even thinking about one....The War Czar idea: is a pathetic statement on the leadership of our country. What is the Commander in Chief if not the War Czar...and what about the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, why is he not doing war czar duty?
The incompetence of this Administration is alarming. And for those of us who have, or have had, family members in the military it is more than scary. It's bad enough they are in harms way--it's worse to know they are their under the command of an incompetent Administration. I am waiting for everyone in this country to get as outraged as many of us mothers and fathers of the troops are!:pissed:
SoWal Insider
I completely agree.
Here is something on correcting the situation.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MWE3Mjc0YWRjNzdiOTY3MzZkNWRhYWNiNGZjOGExYzE=
The state of the economy in the 70s was also affected by tax policy, a shaken faith in the office of the President, and government regulation. The economy does not operate in an oil vacuum.
UT was just adding more fuel to my point regarding our interests in Israel, and Arab oil relaince, and you state you completely agree that economies are affected globally, but yet you are debating my assertion? :confused:
Our economy is not affected by what happens globally???
As far as your article posted, tell me how the US had anything to do with the Sunnis turning against Al Qaeda? this has been going on for a while on it's own. Further, turning up at police stations, how is that going to help anything? Why isn't Maliki using this to his benefit? Our US soldiers basically say the Iraqi police are useless. Further, the communications between the Iraqi army and the Police are next to nil.
Do you really believe the Petraeus plan is going to work? There still are not enough troops to secure Baghdad and the Sunni triangle. We will also be short 1/3 of the troops needed for counterinsurgency.
As it is right now the only way some troops can enter dangerous zones in Baghdad is by foot with a tanker following behind them.
Some of our equipment are in desperate need of work.
Our battle weary soldiers are currently being pushed to their brinks, and have to extend tours.
All the counterinsurgency in the world is not going to bring about a political solution acceptable to the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds.
Here is an editorial that IMO displays a more realistic view of what is actually going on.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/o.../Times Topics/People/M/Maliki, Nuri Kamal al-
Petraeus may have written an excellent counterinsurgency doctrine, but even he is unsure that it will work in Iraq with the complex political climate there. IMO, Bush is using him as puppet to keep us there as long as possible.
Do I have answers, no, but resolution may lie more in the hands of the Iraqis than we give them credit for.
Edited
Beach FanaticAuthor
UT was just adding more fuel to my point regarding our interests in Israel, and Arab oil relaince, and you state you completely agree that economies are affected globally, but yet you are debating my assertion? :confused:
Our economy is not affected by what happens globally???
What assertion? Of course out economy is affected by what happens globally, I never said anything different. I disagree with the assertion that we would be more harmed by a loss of MidEast oil than we would by the continued threat of terrorism.
As far as your article posted, tell me how the US had anything to do with the Sunnis turning against Al Qaeda? this has been going on for a while on it's own. Further, turning up at police stations, how is that going to help anything? Why isn't Maliki using this to his benefit? Our US soldiers basically say the Iraqi police are useless. Further, the communications between the Iraqi army and the Police are next to nil.
http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009926
This article has a bit of meat on the subject. The article also addresses the aforementioned Shi'ite Cresent.
Here is an editorial that IMO displays a more realistic view of what is actually going on.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/o.../Times Topics/People/M/Maliki, Nuri Kamal al-
Petraeus may have written an excellent counterinsurgency doctrine, but even he is unsure that it will work in Iraq with the complex political climate there. IMO, Bush is using him as puppet to keep us there as long as possible.
Do I have answers, no, but resolution may lie more in the hands of the Iraqis than we give them credit for.
The NYT doesn't really offer much substance, other than a defeatist tone that they've repeated often. That's really no surprise, while they don't do a very good job of backing up their premise, it is an editorial. I do not agree that he Petraeus is a puppet, but I agree with your last sentence.
Beach FanaticAuthor
IMO what the Krauthammer article (and other conservative writers) seem to ignore, is that regardless of a military "victory"....without the diplomacy necessary to win the peace, all is still lost.
Who is working on the Peace? Not the President, not the State Department, remember (those who are old enough) the Peace Talks in Paris during Vietnam...back then at least someone was trying to work out a Peace Plan.
Here, we've had no War Plan other than taking down Saddam which our military did handily, but afterwards what was their mission? What is the Mission now? How does anyone know when we've won...
And, we have no Peace Plan and as far as I can tell, no one in the Administration even thinking about one....The War Czar idea: is a pathetic statement on the leadership of our country. What is the Commander in Chief if not the War Czar...and what about the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, why is he not doing war czar duty?
The incompetence of this Administration is alarming. And for those of us who have, or have had, family members in the military it is more than scary. It's bad enough they are in harms way--it's worse to know they are their under the command of an incompetent Administration. I am waiting for everyone in this country to get as outraged as many of us mothers and fathers of the troops are!:pissed:
Peace is negotiated by the victors. We aren't in a position to do so right now, hence the surge. For the war czar issue, on its face I agree. Too bad members of Congress each see themselves as such. However, I don't know what the position entails, and the article does not detail the responsibilities, so I can't really comment on it yet.
SoWal Insider
Its not "votes" they don't have...and keep the faith Bob, I realize the deficit is coming down and unemployment is lower that when we last "discussed" it but the correction is right around the corner and you'll have something else to moan and blame about soon...:lol:Orlando is an unplanned Urban Hell that happens to be near Disney.. The deficit can "come down" all you think it will, but almost 10 percent of our current budget services an ever growing existing debt. There is no excuse to simultaneously cut taxes and deficit spend unless you don't care about future consequences.
As an aside, I bet you have a heck of a two weeks w/spring break in Orl, how was traffic?...Red
P.S. what's the deal w/everybody responding by quoting all these long article, repetitive posts...we all know the topic, stop taking up so much space...
Beach FanaticAuthor
Orlando is an unplanned Urban Hell that happens to be near Disney.. The deficit can "come down" all you think it will, but almost 10 percent of our current budget services an ever growing existing debt. There is no excuse to simultaneously cut taxes and deficit spend unless you don't care about future consequences.
I posted an article about this. The future consequences involve forcing the moon party (now the democrats) to cut spending. If there isn't a deficit, there isn't enough of an incentive to reduce spending, which is why deficits are preferable to a balanced budget or a surplus.
SoWal Insider
What assertion? Of course out economy is affected by what happens globally, I never said anything different. I disagree with the assertion that we would be more harmed by a loss of MidEast oil than we would by the continued threat of terrorism.
http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009926
This article has a bit of meat on the subject. The article also addresses the aforementioned Shi'ite Cresent.
The NYT doesn't really offer much substance, other than a defeatist tone that they've repeated often. That's really no surprise, while they don't do a very good job of backing up their premise, it is an editorial. I do not agree that he Petraeus is a puppet, but I agree with your last sentence.
Guess we're going to go around in circles on the your first response, so I give up.
I subscribe to the WSJ, saw the article already and couldn't make it past the flying carpets and pretty tilework to take it seriously enough to finish reading it. I already saw the movie Aladdin.
Edited
Beach FanaticAuthor
Beach FanaticAuthor
Before I am accused of ?moving the goalposts? lets cover all the bases and just look at violence within Iraq.
From ABCNews http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/1033aIraqpoll.pdf
38. Who do you blame the most for the violence that is occurring in the country?
3/5/07
All Sunni Shiite Kurdish
US/coalition forces 31 38 34 8
President Bush 9 12 8 2
Iraqi government 8 13 5 4
Iraqi army 1 3 * 2
Iraqi police 1 2 0 1
Sunni militias/leaders 5 * 8 6
Shiite militias/leaders 6 9 1 14
Sectarian disputes 8 5 7 13
Al Qaeda/foreign jihadis 18 2 28 27
Common criminals 6 3 7 8
The US clearly gets the biggest share of the blame. (Surprised?). When one filters the Kurds out of the poll numbers, (which is within context, since no one in this discussion has advocating being worried about the long term consequences of Bush?s policies towards them) the numbers are even more stark.
http://riga.usembassy.gov/EN/site/embassy/20070410
Beach Fanatic
Hmmm kay..............
Think back to childhood cartoons. Remember how to indicate confusion -a cartoon character would have a blank stare and when he blinked you heard two piano keys?
That was me when I read your response.
By the way, glad to see you are out-sourcing your political propaganda to the Baltic States now. Was it the cheap vodka that attracted you to Latvia? We know you love the cocktails.
The only conclusion I can come to is this -you have conceded that yes, the US is shouldering a majority of the blame for the current poor state of affairs in Iraq. But don?t worry, because Ambassador Samir Shakir Sumaida?ie is going to set them straight.
Another poll number that I saw, but did not post here, was that a majority of Iraqis see the current Iraqi government as ?controlled? by the US. I?m sure they will be much swayed from this opinion by the fact that their ambassador is giving speeches riddled with Bush Administration talking points.
Think back to childhood cartoons. Remember how to indicate confusion -a cartoon character would have a blank stare and when he blinked you heard two piano keys?
That was me when I read your response.
By the way, glad to see you are out-sourcing your political propaganda to the Baltic States now. Was it the cheap vodka that attracted you to Latvia? We know you love the cocktails.
The only conclusion I can come to is this -you have conceded that yes, the US is shouldering a majority of the blame for the current poor state of affairs in Iraq. But don?t worry, because Ambassador Samir Shakir Sumaida?ie is going to set them straight.
Another poll number that I saw, but did not post here, was that a majority of Iraqis see the current Iraqi government as ?controlled? by the US. I?m sure they will be much swayed from this opinion by the fact that their ambassador is giving speeches riddled with Bush Administration talking points.
Beach Fanatic
No, don't leave, I am getting sick of 30 Gay and his taunting buttocks dominating it:funn:
Careful not to draw my attention............or those weapons of mass jiggling may just point your way................and poor 6thGin will feel so neglected..............:roll:
Beach Fanatic
The deficit can "come down" all you think it will, but almost 10 percent of our current budget services an ever growing existing debt. There is no excuse to simultaneously cut taxes and deficit spend unless you don't care about future consequences.
If the future consequences mean that taxes continue to come down and the economy pays for the deficit, your right I don't care...Good luck in Orl...Red
By the way, nobody answered my questions;
1. Why isn't Bush impeached (Constitution shredded and what not)?
2. What have the dems done for the crybabies lately?
3. And who's gonna do your fighting for you? or do you just want to negotiate your way to Daniel Pearl's end
Edited
SoWal Insider
If the future consequences mean that taxes continue to come down and the economy pays for the deficit, your right I don't care...Good luck in Orl...RedThe consequences I speak of are the bonheaded economic policies of GW. How can you not have expansion by simultaneously cutting taxes, deficit spend through war, and have the Federal funds rate lowered to 1.00 percent. The payback is that we have merely delayed a recession that was coming at the end of the Nasdaq blowoff. Making the cost of borrowed money almost free has ruined our national real estate market, and caused millions of folks to tap out their home equity for worthless non-durable short-term consumer purchases. Bush's mute leadership on the flood of illegals that fuel our economy with cheap labor is an abomination. His deficit spending to promote Oil War II has caused our currency to become weak. If these policies benefit you, well, welcome to the party.
By the way, nobody answered my questions;
1. Why isn't Bush impeached (Constitution shredded and what not)?
2. What have the dems done for the crybabies lately?
3. And who's gonna do your fighting for you? or do you just want to negotiate your way to Daniel Pearl's end
Beach Lover
Well said Bob!!!! I often wonder about those that claim anyone who doesn't support the hawk view as being a crybaby? Are they tough guys? Or are they like the dubya, the cheney, and the rumsfeld, having never served! I suspect that if you have never seen the muzzle flashes in the black of night, or felt the plant debri from close rounds, your tough guy bluster is unfounded!
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