Torture in Iraq

Insuinations will get you in trouble, every time. Your point was not well taken. You obviously have little sense of tolerance or compassion. It occurs to me that any points you have attempted to make have been overshadowed by you rigidity and insidiousness. :confused:

So, is this (minus the clapping and bowing smiley faces)

"all I have to say is 30gAy..........................you do rock!!! "

still your position when someone lines another up with Klansmen? Esp. after the latter just made a comment that such behavior is deplorable?

I am, as politely as I can, going to refrain from trying to educate you on the politics of the middle east (there is plenty of available literature that will do it far better than I can) or in the benefits and exposure one gets in travel and IMMERSION in other cultures and religions (and apologies in advance if I offend you but I continue to remain utterly unconvinced by your claims of travel because like I have said one rarely meets people with views as starkly primitive as yours) - I may be wrong, but I seriously doubt it).

You wrote a lot of stuff in that post, but I'll quickly ask what your thoughts are on Palestine's position on Israel?

Palestinian Government Spokesman Dr. Ghazi Hamad on Israel - "this is not a country of humans. These are animals and a group of gangs, and this country must be wiped off the face of the earth."

Here's what you said "So many people are so quick to label others they do not understand as "animals" - it is despicable."

Do Palestine and Israel just need more understanding? Give peace a chance?

30gAy does rock! He made a humorous picture referencing an iconic advertising campaign. The topics under debate at the time were nuclear bombs (mushroom cloud), intolerence and xenophobia (Klan), and Iraq/torture (Abu Grab) so he included photos that represented them.

Your rebuttals consisted of whining and an inappropriate personal attack.

Given a choice between the 2 of you, I know who's invited and who I'd be ashamed of at the next cocktail party!

30gAy does rock! He made a humorous picture referencing an iconic advertising campaign. The topics under debate at the time were nuclear bombs (mushroom cloud), intolerence and xenophobia (Klan), and Iraq/torture (Abu Grab) so he included photos that represented them.

Your rebuttals consisted of whining and an inappropriate personal attack.

Given a choice between the 2 of you, I know who's invited and who I'd be ashamed of at the next cocktail party!

So, to sum up, Nazi, racist, torturer (in a thread where I was condemning racism and torture) - appropriate

Parent's feelings on their children's in your face sexuality - inappropriate

Thanks for clearing that up. Oh, he also called me a drunk one time because I said I had two meetings before and after dinner for cocktails. I think drunks are on the list of people you aren't allowed to offend because it's not their fault. But that's appropriate. Thanks for keeping me straight (no pun intended).

some people just don't "get it" :bang: :idontno:
Sure is funn getting them riled up though....:rofl:

I am officially starting a support group of middle-aged women who love 30 gAy. Posting smilies and laffies and huggies and all that warm fuzzy stuff can be the trademark of our support for each other in these trying times.

😀 :lol: :wub: C'mon girls!

You wrote a lot of stuff in that post, but I'll quickly ask what your thoughts are on Palestine's position on Israel?

Palestinian Government Spokesman Dr. Ghazi Hamad on Israel - "this is not a country of humans. These are animals and a group of gangs, and this country must be wiped off the face of the earth."

Here's what you said "So many people are so quick to label others they do not understand as "animals" - it is despicable."

Do Palestine and Israel just need more understanding? Give peace a chance?

Oh, I do so enjoy making you look idiotic.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

And your point with this post is what?

Oh yes, of course- the obligatory inflammatory comment meant to distract attention away from your inability to back up your previous arguments with logical lines of reasoning:

-Middle East culture is the most violent in history
-The ?animals? (your term) in Iraq represent the whole society and therefore do not warrant any understanding of that society
-Saddam was going to attack the US
-The surge is working
-Al Quaida was in Iraq prior to the invasion.
-Americans need to be sick to their stomach at the ?animals? and not ask any questions.
-If the US doesn?t continue in Iraq, we are weak.
-Not a single culture founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs would condone violence against others.
-Violence is socially accepted in the mid-east.
-Islam alone has been hijacked by extremists and is being turned into a death cult (your term) while Christians and Jews are inherently peaceful.
-The American public does not have the stomach for war, if we loose in Iraq it will be their fault, not Bush?s.
-Oh yes, and Olie is an average height fellow.


Playing political Wack-a-Mole again I see.

Be a real man and defend these assertions, logically. If you feel they are taken out of context, then explain your comments better ?or the big bad homosexual will kick you around again.

I am officially starting a support group of middle-aged women who love 30 gAy. Posting smilies and laffies and huggies and all that warm fuzzy stuff can be the trademark of our support for each other in these trying times.

😀 :lol: :wub: C'mon girls!

While I appreciate the gesture, there is really no need.......unless of course your support involves cash donations.

You see, I enjoy this......(sick, I know)😀

...I'll quickly ask what your thoughts are on Palestine's position on Israel?

Do Palestine and Israel just need more understanding? Give peace a chance?

My policy on genocide is that it's always wrong.

Quoting people advocating it does not place your similar comments in a more flattering light, but rather reinforces the opposing argument that calling a group of people animals is racist.

While I appreciate the gesture, there is really no need.......unless of course your support involves cash donations.

You see, I enjoy this......(sick, I know)😀

I knew this about you.......😀

My policy on genocide is that it's always wrong.

Quoting people advocating it does not place your similar comments in a more flattering light, but rather reinforces the opposing argument that calling a group of people animals is racist.

:blink: HUH????Sounds like double talk to me...

Sorry, I've been exposed to too much 6thGen "logic" today.

We told him dismissing a group of people as animals was racist ......... so he found examples of other groups calling each other animals as evidence to support him.

Except the groups he selected as evidence are trying to kill each other based on their religion and ethnicity and advocating genocide.

So his evidence doesn't show him to be tolerant or not a racist, but supports the opposition's argument that calling people animals is racist.

Sorry, I've been exposed to too much 6thGen "logic" today.

We told him dismissing a group of people as animals was racist ......... so he found examples of other groups calling each other animals as evidence to support him.

Except the groups he selected as evidence are trying to kill each other based on their religion and ethnicity and advocating genocide.

So his evidence doesn't show him to be tolerant or not a racist, but supports the opposition's argument that calling people animals is racist.

OH....OK..........HUH????:lol: J/K sb44, thanks for the clarification of 6thg's logic :wacko:

Sorry, I've been exposed to too much 6thGen "logic" today.

We told him dismissing a group of people as animals was racist ......... so he found examples of other groups calling each other animals as evidence to support him.

Except the groups he selected as evidence are trying to kill each other based on their religion and ethnicity and advocating genocide.

So his evidence doesn't show him to be tolerant or not a racist, but supports the opposition's argument that calling people animals is racist.

No, I said that people that strap bombs to their chest are animals. I'll stand by that. If you can find a place where I said a country, religion or race are animals, please share. I posted that because Chickpea said I was despicable, while talking out of the other side of her mouth by showing understanding towards "Palestinians". It is part of her nothing is wrong and it is all justifiable shtick. It's that simple, really.

Do Palestine and Israel just need more understanding? Give peace a chance?[/quote]

Getting sucked up into this again and I will attempt to be civil and answer the question.

Do Palestine and Israel need more understanding? For anyone who has spent any time at all in the middle east (outside of just visiting Israel) one would realize that a lot of the anger directed towards the US has been because of their unfailing, unequivocal support of Israel. Israel today would not exist without the US.

Having said that I do not believe Israel should not exist. My position on this topic is admittedly absolutely biased except that I can see logic and passions on both sides - my mum's family was jewish, (although converted to catholism in Egypt but by heritage I am jewish -parenthetically -my grandparents were jews whose family was driven out of Spain during the Inquisition and emigrated to Egypt - in addition, quite a few members of my grandmother's family were wiped out in the Holocaust - OK - on my Dad's side, he had immediate family who had lived for generations in Palestine and who were kicked out during and after 1948. Needless to say that this particular topic has always been an interesting, if at times tragic topic of conversation at our dinner table.

I understand and respect the fact that the jews wanted a homeland after WWII and were handed Palestine by the Brits because of historical need to go back to their holy land. Despite the fact that large tracts of land were legitimally won during wars, HUGE numbers of people were displaced unfairly and became refugees in their own country, Lebanon, Jordan, etc... Today, they have less right to return to their country than a Russian with jewish heritage who has never set foot in Israel.

They have lived for multiple generations in sub-human conditions, knowing nothing but violence, hostility, humiliation and loss, with sporadic access to jobs, education, infrastructure, housing, etc... at the whims of the Israelis. They have only known war, bombs and a diminished way of life. So, do I condone suicide bombers? Absolutely NOT - do I understand their innate anger and resentment - YES - do I think they are animals for resorting to these tactics? that is a tough one because like I said in a previous post, if some other people came to this country and forced out whole communities do you not think that as civilized as we all claim to be they would not also take arms and lash out at any symbol of authority? Would they not be indiscriminatory in their anger and desperation?

Without redressing the wrong that was done - peace will never be possible in the middle east. If the US were seen as being less partial and truely committed (without dictating terms of peace), then possibly there would be a chance.

If the palestinians had had better leadership, capable of inciting some form of grass roots passive resistance and revolt then maybe the conditions would be different today. But the odds have since the beginning been stacked against them - in addition, despite the claims that Israel makes of being one of the only democracies in the mid-east, everyone knows that it is only a matter of time until they repeal or give up the one man, one vote law because their population will very quickly be overtaken by palestinians.

It is so easy to sit in our comfort, on our couches, watching on big screen TV's from far far away these war-torn regions and playing judge and jury, condeming unilaterally and expressing self-serving disgust and venom for actions that most people could not even begin to comprehend.

I have mentioned this many times before - I know plenty of palestinians, lebanese, etc who have grown up privileged with wealth, access to higher education, have traveled, etc... and they are torn up, angry, disillusioned and in sincere despair - so try for one second to imagine what someone with none of that access must feel??? Can you?? I certainly can and I long for someone in this country to have that level of compassion and who can genuinely and sincerely help guide forward a just and fair resolution towards peace.

Here's your animal 1/6th, SlimPickens riding an A-Bomb, ready to kill innocents.

Do Palestine and Israel just need more understanding? Give peace a chance?

Without redressing the wrong that was done - peace will never be possible in the middle east. If the US were seen as being less partial and truely committed (without dictating terms of peace), then possibly there would be a chance.

Bingo.

Another excellent post, Ms. Chickpea!:clap:

Chickpea,
That's actually the most insightful thing you've posted, and I agree with 90% of it. I believe that Israel would be around without the US, mostly because they were allied with the USSR until the 70s, if I recall correctly. That being said, most of it doesn't conflict with what I've said. By no means am I comparing myself to Reagan, but he always held a hard line in public. I still believe it is right to state what is right and what is wrong and note that we are on the side of the angels.

Bob,
Great movie. Read a great article on our compromise with Iran. I don't think it will work, but it could have been on State Dept. or Islamic Republic letterhead. I'll dig it up tomorrow.

One of the greatest anti-war films ever made that mocks brinksmanship and preemptive military strikes. The idea of mutually assured destruction is absurd. It's what folks resort to when there are limited lines of communication or compromise. We are now negotiating with Iran from a position of self-inflicted weakness born of an idiotic confrontational foreign policy utterly devoid of any adaptation to changing events. The Iraq war will haunt us for many years. I'm glad GW is inviting ganster-in-chief Putin to his father's summer home. Maybe they can compare notes on which was more futile, the Russian occupation of Afghanistan or the American occupation of Iraq. Meanwhile Bin Laden is ordering cave furniture from IKEA.

Chickpea, have you read Exile by Richard North Patterson? It is a great novel about the Israel/Palestine issue. I'd be interested in your take on it...