Just leave it in
God's hands!
:roll:
Worry. Do you worry? Why worry about things you cannot control?
Just leave it in
God's hands!
:roll:
Just leave it in
God's hands!
:roll:
Replies
326Beach Fanatic
How many people are in your home? I just fixed my photos of my 2 BR townhouse if you wanna start looking right now. www.seacrestinsouthwalton.com. Be sure to push the more photos buttons at top too.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
While faith and logic are not mutually exclusive, skepticism and mysticism usually are. Why in the world would you recall seeing something you don't believe exists?
Actually, faith and logic are in fact mutually exclusive, as the bulk of Christian Conservatives still defer to biblical teachings in the face of oh say, the science of Human Evolution.
But there is still hope for the religious masses. After all, the church taught that the Earth was the center of the Solar System (even hounding poor Galileo to recant his science) for centuries before reversing their opinion on this subject.
How long will modern Christianity embarrass itself with it?s current stance on science (Evolution) before it reverses it?s opinion?
I give it about another decade or so.
Truth, as most Christians love to claim they have a monopoly on, is surprisingly flexible and ever-changing
Beach Fanatic
I will say that messiah is usally anthropomorphic by definition, but you're the one who brought up messiahs, and since you don't believe they exist they're as anthropomorphic as Santa Claus. (I can do this all day, Uncle Timmy. I learned the bulk of my good theology from an atheist. If you want to argue this with me, I should warn you that I'll end up crazy about you. I'm already halfway there.)
If you harbor any doubts about my stamina on these topics please visit the "Root Cause of Terrorism’ thread. I can do this all day and night.
Now back to the topic at hand. What would my reference to messiahs cause you to conclude that I don’t believe they existed? I have no problem with the fact that Jesus or Buddha or Mohamed were real people. I challenge the notion that they are divine.
You claimed that a logical theist is defined by their god, not the other way around. The original challenge to that notion still stands- As no god or deity has ever shown up to define anything, I must conclude that your definition is based not on any god, but on a messiah- an anthropomorphic representative of what you believe to be god.
Big jump there.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
God's will is that "none" should perish. He's talking about people -- not plants and animals!!!
My personal experience with Christians who advocate a literal interpretation of the bible is that they are inclined to ‘interpret’ their own messages whenever it suits their fancy.
Can you quote a passage from the bible that specifies that the act of ’killing’ only applies to people?
If not then I expect that you either:
1) Agree that your god wills killing
2) The bible is not to be read literally
Edited
hmmmm......can't remember
Actually, faith and logic are in fact mutually exclusive, as the bulk of Christian Conservatives still defer to biblical teachings in the face of oh say, the science of Human Evolution.
But there is still hope for the religious masses. After all, the church taught that the Earth was the center of the Solar System (even hounding poor Galileo to recant his science) for centuries before reversing their opinion on this subject.
How long will modern Christianity embarrass itself with it?s current stance on science (Evolution) before it reverses it?s opinion?
I give it about another decade or so.
Truth, as most Christians love to claim they have a monopoly on, is surprisingly flexible and ever-changing
Evolution and Biblical teaching are not mutually exclusive, either.
If you harbor any doubts about my stamina on these topics please visit the "Root Cause of Terrorism? thread. I can do this all day and night.
Now back to the topic at hand. What would my reference to messiahs cause you to conclude that I don?t believe they existed? I have no problem with the fact that Jesus or Buddha or Mohamed were real people. I challenge the notion that they are divine.
You claimed that a logical theist is defined by their god, not the other way around. The original challenge to that notion still stands- As no god or deity has ever shown up to define anything, I must conclude that your definition is based not on any god, but on a messiah- an anthropomorphic representative of what you believe to be god.
Big jump there.
YOU say that no deity has shown up to define anything; I say that he did. I don't believe that Christ was an anthropomorphic representative of God; I believe that Jesus is God, and that we were made in his image, which is quite the opposite of anthropomorphism.
Beach Fanatic
Evolution and Biblical teaching are not mutually exclusive, either.
This woman seems so smart. Ithis interview. It really made me think yesterday. She said it so well in this interview TFT posted on your Madeline L'engle thread,NoHall
Here goes:
Q&A: Madeleine L’Engle on ‘Wrinkle in Time’ Movie
Madeleine L’Engle on God, ‘The Da Vinci Code’ and aging well
WEB EXCLUSIVE
By Melinda Henneberger
Newsweek
May 7 - On Monday, ABC will air the first movie version of Madeleine L’Engle’s classic book, “A Wrinkle in Time,’’ which was originally published in 1962 by Farrar, Straus & Giroux. According to the author’s family, the project—in various incarnations—was 25 years in the making. L’Engle is 85 now and has published more than 50 books, including several volumes of reflections on faith. In a rare interview held in the apartment on Manhattan's West End Avenue where she has lived for decades, L’Engle talked to NEWSWEEK’s Melinda Henneberger about her God, her work and her competition.
NEWSWEEK: So you’ve seen the movie?
Madeleine L’Engle: I’ve glimpsed it.
And did it meet expectations?
Oh, yes. I expected it to be bad, and it is.
What are you working on at the moment?
A book about aging: enjoy it, you might as well. And it’s not all bad. I can say what I want, and I don’t get punished for it.
Such as?
Such as I sometimes think God is a s--t—and he wouldn’t be worth it otherwise. He’s much more interesting when he’s a s--t.
So to you, faith is not a comfort?
Good heavens, no. It’s a challenge: I dare you to believe in God. I dare you to think [our existence] wasn’t an accident.
Many people see faith as anti-intellectual.
Then they’re not very bright. It takes a lot of intellect to have faith, which is why so many people only have religiosity.
Have you read the Harry Potter books?
I read one of them. It’s a nice story but there’s nothing underneath it. I don’t want to be bothered with stuff where there’s nothing underneath. Some people say, “Why do you read the Bible?’’ I say, "Because there’s a lot of stuff underneath."
I ask about the Potter books because, like “Wrinkle,” they have Christian themes yet have been criticized by some Christians, for similar reasons.
Well, the Fundalets [fundamentalist Christians] want a closed system, and I want an open system.
What were the specific objections to “Wrinkle?’’
Oh, the Happy Medium, that terrified them. And Mrs. Which, who is not a witch at all but a wise old woman. I felt like I was really “in’’ because people were condemning it right away. But they were Christians, mostly, and that made me very sad.
Because “Wrinkle’’ is a Christian story, isn’t it?
So is "Winnie the Pooh." Is King Arthur a Christian story? Yes … One reason I stay in the Episcopal Church I was born in is it’s got the best language.
You know Andrew Greeley’s argument that a lot of people stay Catholic for the poetry?
If you want the poetry, the Episcopal Church is better. It has the great writers of the 17th century.
You’re such a prolific writer; what’s your routine?
I just write whenever I can, catch as catch can. I get too nasty if I don’t get enough time to write, so I have to take it.
Like a runner denied his runner’s high. So what are you reading these days?
I just read “The Da Vinci Code," which had some fascinating things in it. I liked that whole central section about Christianity when it postulates that Jesus was a very strong character and that he and Mary Magdalene were lovers and had a child.
So you don’t avoid best sellers on principle?
I usually let them hang around for at least six months, and if they’re still there, then I’ll read them. I’m reading a book on mathematics, too. I usually try to read two books at a time, one for fun and one to educate myself. “The Da Vinci Code” is fun.
Did you see there are several books coming out refuting “The Da Vinci Code”?
That’s silly. It takes too much energy to be against something unless it’s really important. Now if you’re against evolution, that’s important.
What are you against?
Narrow-mindedness. I’m against people taking the Bible absolutely literally, rather than letting some of it be real fantasy, like Jonah. You know, the whole story of David is a novel … Faith is best expressed in story.
If the Bible is not literally true, does that mean we don’t need to take it seriously?
Oh no, you do, because it’s truth, not fact, and you have to take truth seriously even when it expands beyond the facts.
So when you call the Bible a book of stories, you’re not diminishing it?
Anything but. Right from the beginning, from the story of Eve. Eve has gone on to be considered far worse than she is in the direct Bible story—and David far better. I love the story of Jonah; I think it’s very funny. And I like the story of Esther, as long as you stop about a quarter of the way through, before she turns into a real bloody girl.
I always felt sorry for Vashti, though—the first Mrs. Ahasuerus. All she did was refuse to dance.
Yes, she gets forgotten. But that was a very big thing she did, refuse to dance. Enormous.
A couple of the characters in “Wrinkle," have what you call a “compulsion’’ to do something, for reasons they can’t explain. Do you think we’re all a little psychic in that way?
Oh, yes. Society has taught us to repress it, but it’s there.
“Wrinkle’’ was rejected repeatedly before it was published. Were you confident then you’d have a breakthrough?
No, there was a period when I thought I never would. But I kept on writing because that’s what I had to do. I was compelled not to stop.
? 2006 Newsweek, Inc.
YOU say that no deity has shown up to define anything; I say that he did.
Edited
SoWal Insider
Logically you have faith? How many scientists were stoned or burned at Christian stakes trying to advance the scientific method? Why would Christianity be threatened by a greater understanding of our world? Why at this late date do courts struggle over Christians trying to force Creationism in public schools? How can you get around the evidence that man has created hundreds of ideas about the version of his/hers God. Where is the logic of I am the Way, the only true God. All the others over there are faked Gods. Logically, this sets up the scenario of hate and war over differences in beliefs. It's the history of man's world. Is it not ironic and illogical that most killing occurs over ethnic/religious differences. If the devil is the purveyor of evil, then are the abundance of religions the devil's work? Or man's work? How can you have faith in a system of beliefs that clashes with logic and reasoning. Could there be a reason for institutionalizing faith? Is power and money involved? What happens when you have a large organization that rules it's constituency through conformity and fear. Is this not the very definition of a cult?. Is not the only difference between a cult and religion the issue of mass acceptance? Do you call it blasphemy when someone criticizes your religion? Is not repetitive institutionalized worship stereotypical behavior? Whatever your opinion, it's OK to disagree as compromise is the strength of our country, but cause for damnation in the Bible. Compromise is a trait you cannot find in a theocracy. Does that worry you? Should my understanding of the world be as static as a 2000 year old book? Or should I have faith? What are we selling today? Everlasting salvation from death and eternal life. This stuff sells itself without a hint of logic!
SoWal Insider
Start gathering up the snake oil!CoCo's we need to be saved...(from ourselves and too much funn!).
The porch just might be finished by then....we can have the first annual revival here.
JUMBOS + DARGARITAS = NO WORRIES!!!!
Beach Fanatic
Are you sure about that?
I like this one:
:rofl: :rofl: 
hmmmm......can't remember
Logically you have faith?
Yes, and so did Einstein. Would you say that he was irrational?
How many scientists were stoned or burned at Christian stakes trying to advance the scientific method?
No idea. I haven't burned a single one today. I also haven't killed any abortion doctors.
Why would Christianity be threatened by a greater understanding of our world?
I have never said (or even implied) that it would, at least in theory. How would an omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent/omnibenevolent being be threatened by knowledge? Of course, there are as many ignorant Christians as there are ignorant non-Christians, I'm sure, and they would certainly be threatened.
Why at this late date do courts struggle over Christians trying to force Creationism in public schools?
Becaue the term "creationism" covers a BROAD range of thought. Some creationists believe that the world is flat, and others believe in the big bang and a conservative view of evolution. Evolution is also pretty broad. I believe that species evolve, but not that humans evolved from chimps.
How can you get around the evidence that man has created hundreds of ideas about the version of his/her God?
I never tried to get around it, and I think that "hundreds" is conservative. I think there are as many versions of God as there are individuals.
Where is the logic of I am the Way, the only true God.
The same as the logic of Elizabeth II saying "I am the Queen." You don't accept the authority of Jesus saying that he was God, which is completely your choice. I happen to accept it. On an editorial note, I'm gonna quote one of my favorite authors, Frederich Buechner:
"He didn't say that any particular ethic, doctrine, or religion was the way, the truth, and the life. He said that he was. He didn't say that it was by believing or doing anything in particular that you could 'come to the Father.' He said that it was only by him--by living, participating in, being caught up by, the way of life that he embodied, that was his way.
Thus it is possible to be on Christ's way and with his mark upon you without having heard of Christ, and for that reason to be on your way to God though maybe you don't even believe in God."
All the others over there are faked Gods.
This wasn't something you got from me, so I can't address it.
Logically, this sets up the scenario of hate and war over differences in beliefs. It's the history of man's world. Is it not ironic and illogical that most killing occurs over ethnic/religious differences.
Ironic? Yes. But we would kill each other over politics or property lines or something else if it weren't for religious wars. (For the record, I cringe at anyone who does ANYTHING in the name of God. If I do something stupid, then I have to accept the consequences. Blaming God doesn't absolve me of that.)
If the devil is the purveyor of evil, then are the abundance of religions the devil's work? Or man's work?
Both. And I'll grant you that when we get into the problem of evil, it's a knotty business that I don't really understand.
How can you have faith in a system of beliefs that clashes with logic and reasoning?
I don't believe that they clash, and, if it matters, I went to great lengths in college to question every single thing that I grew up taking "by faith." I have no respect for "religious" people who answer a question with, "You just have to take that on faith."
I believe that we were created in the image of a God who wants us to love him with all our minds, and I have yet to find an epistemological issue that has threatened my intellect. (Of course, you obviously think I don't have much intellect to threaten!)
Could there be a reason for institutionalizing faith?
HELL no. There is nothing--NOTHING!--Biblical about that. One of the reasons that the Jewish leadership was so bent on killing Jesus is that they believed that the Messiah was supposed to come in and kick the Romans' @$$. Instead he told them to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. My understanding is that our government is supposed to allow us freedom of religion, not endorse one over the other. (This is why I think they need to butt out of marriages altogether.)
Is power and money involved?
Of course. People are involved. You're asking a lot of generalized questions, and I have to answer that one personally. I'm a Calvinist (I might as well just draw a big red target on my chest, right?
) and I believe in the total depravity of man. Power and money and everything else that is selfish and corrupt is going to sneak into everything we do. The church is portrayed as a hotel for saints, but it's just a shelter for sinners.
What happens when you have a large organization that rules it's constituency through conformity and fear. Is this not the very definition of a cult?
Not strictly. There's a laundry list that defines a cult (which includes conformity and fear) and there are also a lot of gray areas.
Is not the only difference between a cult and religion the issue of mass acceptance?
No. We'll look that up at some point, but your list is long and I want to get through it. I promise I'll give you a better answer at some point if it's important to you.
Do you call it blasphemy when someone criticizes your religion?
No. I call it individuality. (But I'll call you an SOB if you criticize me!)
Is not repetitive institutionalized worship stereotypical behavior?
You're gonna have to expand that. I'm not sure what you mean.
Whatever your opinion, it's OK to disagree as compromise is the strength of our country, but cause for damnation in the Bible. Compromise is a trait you cannot find in a theocracy. Does that worry you?
No, it does not worry me. There is a difference between compromise in society and internal compromise. The damnation of societal compromise in the Old Testament had a lot to do with survival. The New Testament has a lot to say about being willing to live and let live. Unfortunately, most Christians tend to skip over that part. There is a great deal of compromise in the Old Testament. Jesus' most condemning words were directed toward the religious leaders, and he was often criticized for hanging out with the bad kids.
Should my understanding of the world be as static as a 2000 year old book?
Static? Should my understanding of government be as static as the 200-year old Constitution? Or of the much older Magna Carta, which played into the creations of many good governing systems? That book is about people, and human nature has changed very little since the day Cain killed his brother out of jealousy.
Or should I have faith?
Not if it's blind, and CERTAINLY not if it contradicts the good sense that I believe God gave you.
What are we selling today?
I'm not selling anything, but I'll gladly take donations at the door...
Everlasting salvation from death and eternal life. This stuff sells itself without a hint of logic!
Only if you understand what you're being saved from and into...
Timmy and Bob--I'll gladly swing at anything you pitch. I only ask that you remember two things:
Yes, and so did Einstein. Would you say that he was irrational?
How many scientists were stoned or burned at Christian stakes trying to advance the scientific method?
No idea. I haven't burned a single one today. I also haven't killed any abortion doctors.
Why would Christianity be threatened by a greater understanding of our world?
I have never said (or even implied) that it would, at least in theory. How would an omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent/omnibenevolent being be threatened by knowledge? Of course, there are as many ignorant Christians as there are ignorant non-Christians, I'm sure, and they would certainly be threatened.
Why at this late date do courts struggle over Christians trying to force Creationism in public schools?
Becaue the term "creationism" covers a BROAD range of thought. Some creationists believe that the world is flat, and others believe in the big bang and a conservative view of evolution. Evolution is also pretty broad. I believe that species evolve, but not that humans evolved from chimps.
How can you get around the evidence that man has created hundreds of ideas about the version of his/her God?
I never tried to get around it, and I think that "hundreds" is conservative. I think there are as many versions of God as there are individuals.
Where is the logic of I am the Way, the only true God.
The same as the logic of Elizabeth II saying "I am the Queen." You don't accept the authority of Jesus saying that he was God, which is completely your choice. I happen to accept it. On an editorial note, I'm gonna quote one of my favorite authors, Frederich Buechner:
"He didn't say that any particular ethic, doctrine, or religion was the way, the truth, and the life. He said that he was. He didn't say that it was by believing or doing anything in particular that you could 'come to the Father.' He said that it was only by him--by living, participating in, being caught up by, the way of life that he embodied, that was his way.
Thus it is possible to be on Christ's way and with his mark upon you without having heard of Christ, and for that reason to be on your way to God though maybe you don't even believe in God."
All the others over there are faked Gods.
This wasn't something you got from me, so I can't address it.
Logically, this sets up the scenario of hate and war over differences in beliefs. It's the history of man's world. Is it not ironic and illogical that most killing occurs over ethnic/religious differences.
Ironic? Yes. But we would kill each other over politics or property lines or something else if it weren't for religious wars. (For the record, I cringe at anyone who does ANYTHING in the name of God. If I do something stupid, then I have to accept the consequences. Blaming God doesn't absolve me of that.)
If the devil is the purveyor of evil, then are the abundance of religions the devil's work? Or man's work?
Both. And I'll grant you that when we get into the problem of evil, it's a knotty business that I don't really understand.
How can you have faith in a system of beliefs that clashes with logic and reasoning?
I don't believe that they clash, and, if it matters, I went to great lengths in college to question every single thing that I grew up taking "by faith." I have no respect for "religious" people who answer a question with, "You just have to take that on faith."
I believe that we were created in the image of a God who wants us to love him with all our minds, and I have yet to find an epistemological issue that has threatened my intellect. (Of course, you obviously think I don't have much intellect to threaten!)Could there be a reason for institutionalizing faith?
HELL no. There is nothing--NOTHING!--Biblical about that. One of the reasons that the Jewish leadership was so bent on killing Jesus is that they believed that the Messiah was supposed to come in and kick the Romans' @$$. Instead he told them to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. My understanding is that our government is supposed to allow us freedom of religion, not endorse one over the other. (This is why I think they need to butt out of marriages altogether.)
Is power and money involved?
Of course. People are involved. You're asking a lot of generalized questions, and I have to answer that one personally. I'm a Calvinist (I might as well just draw a big red target on my chest, right?
) and I believe in the total depravity of man. Power and money and everything else that is selfish and corrupt is going to sneak into everything we do. The church is portrayed as a hotel for saints, but it's just a shelter for sinners. What happens when you have a large organization that rules it's constituency through conformity and fear. Is this not the very definition of a cult?
Not strictly. There's a laundry list that defines a cult (which includes conformity and fear) and there are also a lot of gray areas.
Is not the only difference between a cult and religion the issue of mass acceptance?
No. We'll look that up at some point, but your list is long and I want to get through it. I promise I'll give you a better answer at some point if it's important to you.
Do you call it blasphemy when someone criticizes your religion?
No. I call it individuality. (But I'll call you an SOB if you criticize me!
)Is not repetitive institutionalized worship stereotypical behavior?
You're gonna have to expand that. I'm not sure what you mean.
Whatever your opinion, it's OK to disagree as compromise is the strength of our country, but cause for damnation in the Bible. Compromise is a trait you cannot find in a theocracy. Does that worry you?
No, it does not worry me. There is a difference between compromise in society and internal compromise. The damnation of societal compromise in the Old Testament had a lot to do with survival. The New Testament has a lot to say about being willing to live and let live. Unfortunately, most Christians tend to skip over that part. There is a great deal of compromise in the Old Testament. Jesus' most condemning words were directed toward the religious leaders, and he was often criticized for hanging out with the bad kids.
Should my understanding of the world be as static as a 2000 year old book?
Static? Should my understanding of government be as static as the 200-year old Constitution? Or of the much older Magna Carta, which played into the creations of many good governing systems? That book is about people, and human nature has changed very little since the day Cain killed his brother out of jealousy.
Or should I have faith?
Not if it's blind, and CERTAINLY not if it contradicts the good sense that I believe God gave you.
What are we selling today?
I'm not selling anything, but I'll gladly take donations at the door...
Everlasting salvation from death and eternal life. This stuff sells itself without a hint of logic!
Only if you understand what you're being saved from and into...
Timmy and Bob--I'll gladly swing at anything you pitch. I only ask that you remember two things:
- I am not an institution. I am an individual. When you say something along the lines of, "You believe it's okay to kill infidels," I have to answer that I haven't killed a single infidel all day long. I haven't had any rallies or started any wars or killed anyone because God told me to. In return, I promise not to blame you personally for all the evil done by non-Christians.
- I have feelings. Please be gentle with them. I can take a little ribbing, but for financial reasons would prefer to not be martyred until after I've finished my master's degree.
Edited
SoWal Expert
With all this talk of Christianity, I have a question for you theologians. In Exodus 20:4-5 (Ten Commandments), God states,
4 ?You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. 5 You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected?even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me."
So if God is punishing future generations based on the actions of someone who died long ago, how can those future generations ever be "saved?"
On a similar note, verse 4 state that you we must not make idols of any kind. Why then do people buy these fish emblems? Are they and their future generations going to be punished? It does seem that in my experiences, many "Christian" care more about letting others know that they are saved, than they do about learning about God. In my opinion, the physical building of the church is as much an idol as is a cross. Some people may say that they are not idols, but symbols of Jesus. I guess that works in some cases, but according to the literal terms of the Commandments, I have to question it.
Any thoughts on these two questions?
4 ?You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. 5 You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected?even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me."
So if God is punishing future generations based on the actions of someone who died long ago, how can those future generations ever be "saved?"
On a similar note, verse 4 state that you we must not make idols of any kind. Why then do people buy these fish emblems? Are they and their future generations going to be punished? It does seem that in my experiences, many "Christian" care more about letting others know that they are saved, than they do about learning about God. In my opinion, the physical building of the church is as much an idol as is a cross. Some people may say that they are not idols, but symbols of Jesus. I guess that works in some cases, but according to the literal terms of the Commandments, I have to question it.
Any thoughts on these two questions?
hmmmm......can't remember
So if God is punishing future generations based on the actions of someone who died long ago, how can those future generations ever be "saved?"
I think it's about consequences, not salvation. A lot of what is in the Old Testament is largely seen as a list of "Don't do this or God's gonna getcha." Most of it is really more like an owner's manual. Change your oil or your block is gonna crack, right? Start sleeping around with everybody else's wife in the neighborhood, and you're gonna end up with a hole in your soul.
My understanding of the sins to the fourth generation is that it's consequences. An abuser was likely an abused child, for instnace. It's a warning that the messes you lay on your children cannot be swept under the rug.
On a similar note, verse 4 state that you we must not make idols of any kind. Why then do people buy these fish emblems? Are they and their future generations going to be punished? It does seem that in my experiences, many "Christians" care more about letting others know that they are saved, than they do about learning about God. In my opinion, the physical building of the church is as much an idol as is a cross. Some people may say that they are not idols, but symbols of Jesus. I guess that works in some cases, but according to the literal terms of the Commandments, I have to question it.
I think you're absolutely right about the car fishes, the idols, and the egos. As for the future generations, children live what they learn, right?
(Am I talking too much?)
I think it's about consequences, not salvation. A lot of what is in the Old Testament is largely seen as a list of "Don't do this or God's gonna getcha." Most of it is really more like an owner's manual. Change your oil or your block is gonna crack, right? Start sleeping around with everybody else's wife in the neighborhood, and you're gonna end up with a hole in your soul.
My understanding of the sins to the fourth generation is that it's consequences. An abuser was likely an abused child, for instnace. It's a warning that the messes you lay on your children cannot be swept under the rug.
On a similar note, verse 4 state that you we must not make idols of any kind. Why then do people buy these fish emblems? Are they and their future generations going to be punished? It does seem that in my experiences, many "Christians" care more about letting others know that they are saved, than they do about learning about God. In my opinion, the physical building of the church is as much an idol as is a cross. Some people may say that they are not idols, but symbols of Jesus. I guess that works in some cases, but according to the literal terms of the Commandments, I have to question it.
I think you're absolutely right about the car fishes, the idols, and the egos. As for the future generations, children live what they learn, right?
(Am I talking too much?)
SoWal Expert
(Am I talking too much?)Not at all and your answers are interesting. Growing up in the Southern Baptists Church, the Sunday School Teachers didn't like me asking questions. I don't think they actually had the answers except for the direct translation of the King James Bible. The preachers always had a way of wiggling around the questions, too, and none of them ever gave challenging thoughts to my own questions, and I had a lot of them. I'll throw some more your way later on. I enjoy discussing religion as long as there is not a literal Bible thumper on the other end.
"Dear Lord, save me from your followers." -- bumper sticker on my friend's mom's car
Beach Fanatic
YOU say that no deity has shown up to define anything; I say that he did. I don't believe that Christ was an anthropomorphic representative of God; I believe that Jesus is God, and that we were made in his image, which is quite the opposite of anthropomorphism.
Actually, claiming man is made in god?s image is textbook anthropomorphism.
.......................And something I have always found odd. Why would god, a supposedly infinitely powerful being have an totally useless appendix?
Or canine incisors? Teeth that are only found in meat eating animals.
Evidently, god is a carnivore.
For that matter what would a deity need a digestive system for anyways?
Very, very weird -and one of the strangest religious beliefs.
But regardless, look at your response from the perspective of someone who does not believe in a literal interpretation of the bible- your response is completely predicated on biblical teachings -which is completely irrelevant to the person asking the question.
Can you explain how claiming man was made in god?s image isn?t anthropomorphic without referring to the bible?
Beach Fanatic
Not at all and your answers are interesting. Growing up in the Southern Baptists Church, the Sunday School Teachers didn't like me asking questions. I don't think they actually had the answers except for the direct translation of the King James Bible. The preachers always had a way of wiggling around the questions, too, and none of them ever gave challenging thoughts to my own questions, and I had a lot of them. I'll throw some more your way later on. I enjoy discussing religion as long as there is not a literal Bible thumper on the other end.
"Dear Lord, save me from your followers." -- bumper sticker on my friend's mom's car
I Like that sticker !!
hmmmm......can't remember
Not at all and your answers are interesting.
Growing up in the Southern Baptists Church, the Sunday School Teachers didn't like me asking questions. I don't think they actually had the answers except for the direct translation of the King James Bible. The preachers always had a way of wiggling around the questions, too, and none of them ever gave challenging thoughts to my own questions, and I had a lot of them. I'll throw some more your way later on. I enjoy discussing religion as long as there is not a literal Bible thumper on the other end.
"Dear Lord, save me from your followers." -- bumper sticker on my friend's mom's car
I would stick that on my bumper in a heartbeat!
Actually, claiming man is made in god’s image is textbook anthropomorphism.
No, claiming God is made in man's image is the definition of anthropomorphism.
And something I have always found odd. Why would god, a supposedly infinitely powerful being have an totally useless appendix?
Or canine incisors? Teeth that are only found in meat eating animals.
Evidently, god is a carnivore.
For that matter what would a deity need a digestive system for anyways?
Very, very weird -and one of the strangest religious beliefs.
You are making God in man's image. Let's not be silly, please.
But regardless, look at your response from the perspective of someone who does not believe in a literal interpretation of the bible- your response is completely predicated on biblical teachings -which is completely irrelevant to the person asking the question.
I understand that it is a fallacy to appeal to an authority that you do not accept. I wasn't arguing a priori knowledge or experience; it was my understanding that Bob's questions had to do with my belief as a Christian. None of those questions were independent of that.
Can you explain how claiming man was made in god’s image isn’t anthropomorphic without referring to the bible?
I'll do my best, and I'm sure that you will tell me where my argument needs more 'splaining or expanding:
Anthropomorphism is when we attribute human characteristics to something. I don't believe God has an appendix or a belly button. I don't believe that he has the characteristics of a human--he doesn't get sick, he doesn't screw up, doesn't slam his finger in the car door. This all falls under the definition of God; if he is God, he is not human. Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. Infallible.
My belief that we are made in his image is, obviously, a belief. I do not have independent verification of it. Of all the theories explaining how life, the universe and everything came to be, intelligent design is the one that makes sense to me. Like Einstein, I can't quite wrap my head around life that just "happens."
Tell me, Uncle Timmy, some of what you think. I want to understand where you're coming from, too. How do you think that a human, an elephant, a sycamore tree, and a ladybug all got here? How did we get from pre-Bang nothing to primordial ooze to a planet teeming with such amazing diversity?
Edited
hmmmm......can't remember
A gift for you, Uncle Timmy. A friend (a Christian friend, I might add) just sent me this. (For what it's worth, I believe Old Testament law was specific to the Israelites within a specific time period, unless I need a good reason to smite my neighbor.)
Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted fan,
Jim
Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a east coast resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted fan,
Jim
Meow
The more I learn, the less I know! Thanks for the debate!
SoWal Insider
NoHall, I greatly enjoyed your answers. I ask many questions, and have few answers although my observations of human behavior never ceases to amaze. Like SJ, I carry the scars of being raised up in the Southern Baptist mentality. I've come to the conclusion that I needed this mental pummeling early to appreciate that there are so many possibilities about the big questions in life. Einstein was very spiritual, and wrote of his growing belief in God as he became older. I have an aversion to crowd mentality. So much of what I see in America is about groupthink and the politics of intolerance. Mexican illegals are going to be the next to get waylaid as we approach a possible recession. They'll be blamed for all our ills. With the population shift to the Sunbelt we currently have a toxic mix of religion and politics. Intolerance and fear mixed with a dependence on oil is precisely what has led us into the most morally misguided war of our generation. I lay responsibility for this mass insanity solely at the foot of Christian conservatives. It is the suspension of logic and trusting in faith that allows people to not think of the consequences of their actions. Christians should be the last to violence, not the first in line.
Beach Fanatic
NoHall, I greatly enjoyed your answers. I ask many questions, and have few answers although my observations of human behavior never ceases to amaze. Like SJ, I carry the scars of being raised up in the Southern Baptist mentality. I've come to the conclusion that I needed this mental pummeling early to appreciate that there are so many possibilities about the big questions in life. Einstein was very spiritual, and wrote of his growing belief in God as he became older. I have an aversion to crowd mentality. So much of what I see in America is about groupthink and the politics of intolerance. Mexican illegals are going to be the next to get waylaid as we approach a possible recession. They'll be blamed for all our ills. With the population shift to the Sunbelt we currently have a toxic mix of religion and politics. Intolerance and fear mixed with a dependence on oil is precisely what has led us into the most morally misguided war of our generation. I lay responsibility for this mass insanity solely at the foot of Christian conservatives. It is the suspension of logic and trusting in faith that allows people to not think of the consequences of their actions. Christians should be the last to violence, not the first in line.
So....Southern Baptist....We have that in common. I was born again at 15 by a tent revival preacher.He preached hell fire, and scared me. I remember riding home with my family that night looking out the window at the sky and feeling so close to god. The same preacher years later died in a burning car. He was trapped inside. Church to me now is the beach or talking to anyone open to life. If someone chooses to go to church and worship that is cool too.
hmmmm......can't remember
NoHall, I greatly enjoyed your answers. I ask many questions, and have few answers although my observations of human behavior never ceases to amaze. Like SJ, I carry the scars of being raised up in the Southern Baptist mentality.
So do I...
I've come to the conclusion that I needed this mental pummeling early to appreciate that there are so many possibilities about the big questions in life. Einstein was very spiritual, and wrote of his growing belief in God as he became older. I have an aversion to crowd mentality. So much of what I see in America is about groupthink and the politics of intolerance. Mexican illegals are going to be the next to get waylaid as we approach a possible recession. They'll be blamed for all our ills. With the population shift to the Sunbelt we currently have a toxic mix of religion and politics. Intolerance and fear mixed with a dependence on oil is precisely what has led us into the most morally misguided war of our generation. I lay responsibility for this mass insanity solely at the foot of Christian conservatives.
I wouldn't say "solely" (although I won't deny you your right to say it!) That kind of mess is not just found in Christianity; it's the nature of ganging up of any kind.
It is the suspension of logic and trusting in faith that allows people to not think of the consequences of their actions.
I think it's pride, pure and simple. But there are Christians who will use their so-called faith to justify what can't be justified by logic. It's an insult to both faith and logic. The Biblical definition of faith (if you'll allow me to use it as an example, not as a universal law) is "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." I've never seen my own DNA, but I'm certain of it. I've never seen China, but my brother says that he was there. There is no proof that I'll live to see the morning, (in fact, I'm certain that I will die at some point) but I'm going to do the same things I do every night because I hope for it. I believe that God gives us concrete evidence of certain things every blessed day to teach us how to reason. This is what separates us from the other critters. I believe that it is ridiculous to act illogically and call it faith.
Christians should be the last to violence, not the first in line.
I think that Christ himself set that example, and nothing he or the writers of the New Testament taught contradicts that example.
I can't make up for the gross, illogical mess that is mainstream Christianity, but I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts with me and to fight fair with me on it. I never want to be the sort of Christian you and Uncle Timmy have described. I appreciate your willingness to show me what you see.
So do I...
I've come to the conclusion that I needed this mental pummeling early to appreciate that there are so many possibilities about the big questions in life. Einstein was very spiritual, and wrote of his growing belief in God as he became older. I have an aversion to crowd mentality. So much of what I see in America is about groupthink and the politics of intolerance. Mexican illegals are going to be the next to get waylaid as we approach a possible recession. They'll be blamed for all our ills. With the population shift to the Sunbelt we currently have a toxic mix of religion and politics. Intolerance and fear mixed with a dependence on oil is precisely what has led us into the most morally misguided war of our generation. I lay responsibility for this mass insanity solely at the foot of Christian conservatives.
I wouldn't say "solely" (although I won't deny you your right to say it!) That kind of mess is not just found in Christianity; it's the nature of ganging up of any kind.
It is the suspension of logic and trusting in faith that allows people to not think of the consequences of their actions.
I think it's pride, pure and simple. But there are Christians who will use their so-called faith to justify what can't be justified by logic. It's an insult to both faith and logic. The Biblical definition of faith (if you'll allow me to use it as an example, not as a universal law) is "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." I've never seen my own DNA, but I'm certain of it. I've never seen China, but my brother says that he was there. There is no proof that I'll live to see the morning, (in fact, I'm certain that I will die at some point) but I'm going to do the same things I do every night because I hope for it. I believe that God gives us concrete evidence of certain things every blessed day to teach us how to reason. This is what separates us from the other critters. I believe that it is ridiculous to act illogically and call it faith.
Christians should be the last to violence, not the first in line.
I think that Christ himself set that example, and nothing he or the writers of the New Testament taught contradicts that example.
I can't make up for the gross, illogical mess that is mainstream Christianity, but I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts with me and to fight fair with me on it. I never want to be the sort of Christian you and Uncle Timmy have described. I appreciate your willingness to show me what you see.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted fan,
Jim
I enjoyed reading this.
SoWal Insider
So....Southern Baptist....We have that in common. I was born again at 15 by a tent revival preacher.He preached hell fire, and scared me. I remember riding home with my family that night looking out the window at the sky and feeling so close to god. The same preacher years later died in a burning car. He was trapped inside. Church to me now is the beach or talking to anyone open to life. If someone chooses to go to church and worship that is cool too.Wow, the man that played the organ at my wedding was struck by lightning on a golf course and dispatched to a tee time in heaven. Of course, he was Presbyterian. I guess Baptists get cooked, Presbyterians zapped. What does that leave for Catholics? I seem to ponder the randomness of life the day golfer Payne Stewart died in that tragic jet decompression. I believe the week before Stewart had given over 500k to the largest Baptist church in Orlando. Is this a sign? Regarding spirituality, I realize how much there is to know, and that truth often lies exactly opposite our beliefs. We can learn something from everyone when we relax. I just need to make more time to listen.
Edited
SoWal Expert
Actually, claiming man is made in god?s image is textbook anthropomorphism.
.......................And something I have always found odd. Why would god, a supposedly infinitely powerful being have an totally useless appendix?
Or canine incisors? Teeth that are only found in meat eating animals.
Along those same lines, in Exodus, God claims to be a jealous God. Why would such a power, which created the Universe, have jealousy? Is God jealous of other Gods? Seems to be, but again, by definition, God is THE supreme being, therefore there cannot be other Gods. (my preachers never could answer this one.)
SoWal Expert
How do you think that a human, an elephant, a sycamore tree, and a ladybug all got here? How did we get from pre-Bang nothing to primordial ooze to a planet teeming with such amazing diversity?
Here's one for you, if God created everything, what created God? If we take the question as a truth, "God created everything," that would mean that God created God, and that sounds rather silly, doesn't it? Let's get past that question and ask, if God is so infinitely powerful, why was God so bored that God created plants and animals? Surely, such a power couldn't get bored. :scratch:
These are serious questions. My preachers hated to see me coming.
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