Cali Constitutional gay marriage ban struck down

Ask Mittens Romney. Based on his religious beliefs, he prefers the sanctity of run of the mill polygamy, but cannot seem to wrap his little narrow mind around gay matrimony.

Folks... this will become a Chinese menu litmus test for the definition of marriage for 2012.

Well, I think it's important to point out that the church of latter day saints strongly supported proposition 8 and strongly opposes the recent ruling by the judge.

California voters have twice been given the opportunity to vote on the definition of marriage in their state and both times have determined that marriage should be recognized as only between a man and a woman. We agree. Marriage between a man and a woman is the bedrock of society.

That is the church's official stance on the issue.

Massachusetts has legal same sex marriage. And based on your assessment nobody else is harmed by that.

I can accept that.

But, Massachusetts also imprisons people for 20 years if they have consensual sex between two people who are closely related (closer than first-cousin).

Does incest hurt anyone else? I can't see how.

Yet nobody complains about those rights being infringed upon.

Why?

What about polygamy?

Ask the Romanovs about the ills of incest.

In Utah there are polygamous families with one breadwinner to provide for a smattering of wives and a gazillion children. If you don't like welfare, you won't like polygamy. It also pits young men who might want to have just one wife against old geezers who have scooped up a dozen for themselves a few years earlier. Finally, polygamy inspires weird facial hair. That's plenty of downside, in my opinion....

Gay marriage, on the other hand -- you often have two breadwinners and few or no children. It's a boom, with two people adding wealth to the society, paying taxes, etc., and using few public resources such as schools. This must be why Republican deficit hawkes looooooooove gay marriage!

Well, I think it's important to point out that the church of latter day saints strongly supported proposition 8 and strongly opposes the recent ruling by the judge.



That is the church's official stance on the issue.

The will of the people is certainly critical in the discussion. A lot of people in California voted for prop 8, just like they did here in Florida. The question comes down to whether or not prop 8 and similar amendments violate the constitutional rights of gays in some way. I'm pretty strict when it comes to interpreting the intent of the founders and the meaning, but even with this I think there's validity to the equal protection argument.

As far as the church goes, they really don't have an official say do they? They can instruct constituents to vote a certain way, but that's about it. If however that vote violates the constitution, the courts can strike it down.

Via his Twitter feed, Newt informs us that the judge's decision is an outrageous disrespect for the Constitution, prompting one responder to Tweet "Newt, which one of your three marriages was the most sacred to you?"

Scocca : Newt Gingrich on Gay Marriage: Shameless and/or Fearless

I have a Great Aunt who's been married 13 times. All of them sacred.

Well just think how much worse it would be for straight couples if we let gays marry and weaken the foundation even more. They might even be part of the problem right now. Everything under the marriage roof is all connected.

Aren't you concerned that the desirable marriages are failing and the marriages we want to fail are working out??...

If you can come up with one compelling reason that gay marriage is any way tied to hetero marriages failing, I'd like to hear it. I don't buy it.

"We" meaning who? I certainly don't think you should be putting words into the mouths of your fellow posters. That statement couldn't be any further from what I believe. I have no desires for any union to fail, gay or hetero. "You" is you, and "Me" is me, but there ain't no "We" in regards to this at all. You have your beliefs and ideals, and I have mine and ne'er the tween shall they meet. There may be some here who have the same ideals as you, but "we" is way too broad a statement to be making...

Well, I think it's important to point out that the church of latter day saints strongly supported proposition 8 and strongly opposes the recent ruling by the judge.



That is the church's official stance on the issue.

what does a church have to do with this??

The will of the people is certainly critical in the discussion. A lot of people in California voted for prop 8, just like they did here in Florida. The question comes down to whether or not prop 8 and similar amendments violate the constitutional rights of gays in some way. I'm pretty strict when it comes to interpreting the intent of the founders and the meaning, but even with this I think there's validity to the equal protection argument.

As far as the church goes, they really don't have an official say do they? They can instruct constituents to vote a certain way, but that's about it. If however that vote violates the constitution, the courts can strike it down.

the courts can strike it down on a whim

I have a Great Aunt who's been married 13 times. All of them sacred.

Holy !

Does she know you CAN just date someone?

How many times did she get divorced?

The church has nothing to do with this. I brought it up because alphacrabs brought up mitt romneys faith and I wanted to be sure there was no misunderstanding on how the Mormon church feels on this issue.

The church has nothing to do with this. I brought it up because alphacrabs brought up mitt romneys faith and I wanted to be sure there was no misunderstanding on how the Mormon church feels on this issue.

I think crab was saying that Romney has no problem with the sanctity of serial hetero marriage, but says no way to a simple monogamous gay marriage.

Ask the Romanovs about the ills of incest.

In Utah there are polygamous families with one breadwinner to provide for a smattering of wives and a gazillion children. If you don't like welfare, you won't like polygamy. It also pits young men who might want to have just one wife against old geezers who have scooped up a dozen for themselves a few years earlier. Finally, polygamy inspires weird facial hair. That's plenty of downside, in my opinion....

Gay marriage, on the other hand -- you often have two breadwinners and few or no children. It's a boom, with two people adding wealth to the society, paying taxes, etc., and using few public resources such as schools. This must be why Republican deficit hawkes looooooooove gay marriage!

You imply that polygamous families that may live in Utah are Mormon and that is false. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) does not condone polygamy.

Romney's religion DOES NOT support polygamy.

True.

But which religion is most commonly associated with polygamy historically speaking? LDS.

I have the impression that polygamy in or around LDS is much like priestly molestation of boys in the Catholic church. It is or has been pervasive in some factions and the churches have unofficially looked the other way for a long long time.

Thoughts?

The LDS doesn't condone polygamy, but a whole lot of folks calling themselves "Mormon" practice it. It's also practiced in many Muslim countries.

Interestingly, these cultures that tolerate plural marriages also ban alcohol. So what's a fella with eight wives yapping at him all the livelong day supposed to do to relax? Drink.... tea? I'd kill myself.

True.

But which religion is most commonly associated with polygamy historically speaking? LDS.

I have the impression that polygamy in or around LDS is much like priestly molestation of boys in the Catholic church. It is or has been pervasive in some factions and the churches have unofficially looked the other way for a long long time.

Thoughts?

Islam, but for some reason it isn't polite to pick on them, not sure why.

True.

But which religion is most commonly associated with polygamy historically speaking? LDS.

I have the impression that polygamy in or around LDS is much like priestly molestation of boys in the Catholic church. It is or has been pervasive in some factions and the churches have unofficially looked the other way for a long long time.

Thoughts?

I thanked CCK for stating that the Church of LDS does not condone polygamy, but I think you are spot on, too...

True.

But which religion is most commonly associated with polygamy historically speaking? LDS.

I have the impression that polygamy in or around LDS is much like priestly molestation of boys in the Catholic church. It is or has been pervasive in some factions and the churches have unofficially looked the other way for a long long time.

Thoughts?

Geo, your "impression" is uniformed and your above comparison is offensive.

The practice of polygamy is in no way practiced by members of the LDS Church. It is not pervasive and the church does "not look the other way" at people who practice polygamy. If there are any polygamist who call themselves "Mormon," they do so out of spite toward the LDS Church. Polygamists are not allowed to be members of the LDS Church.

The LDS doesn't condone polygamy, but a whole lot of folks calling themselves "Mormon" practice it. It's also practiced in many Muslim countries.

Interestingly, these cultures that tolerate plural marriages also ban alcohol. So what's a fella with eight wives yapping at him all the livelong day supposed to do to relax? Drink.... tea? I'd kill myself.

I think y'all have been watching too much "Big Love".

CCK, my post which offended you started out acknowledging your point about current LDS policy against polygamy.

It went on to address Mormon polygamy speaking historically.

If I'm off then explain this-

Understanding Polygamy in Mormon History - For Dummies

The LDS doesn't condone polygamy, but a whole lot of folks calling themselves "Mormon" practice it. It's also practiced in many Muslim countries.

Interestingly, these cultures that tolerate plural marriages also ban alcohol. So what's a fella with eight wives yapping at him all the livelong day supposed to do to relax? Drink.... tea? I'd kill myself.

I just got back from Utah and Idaho, visited Temple Square and spent alot of time with some Mormons and their families. . After comparing the mountainous terrain to New York, and lack of rainfall, I commented on how I couldn't imagine how anyone who originally settled there could jiggy with one person, nevermind multiples. Seemed to get a lot of chuckles. Love those peeps. Can't wait to go back. Does coming home with a puppy they gave me when I already have a cat make me a petagomist?

P.S. I did not see any polygamy going on, but was told that there are small, and I mean small groups of Mormons who still practice it in rural areas under a Don't ask, don't tell and stay very far out of the fray. This is not just Utah. But, it is a very minute group of people in comparison to the whole Mormon population.

I think y'all have been watching too much "Big Love".

Great show!

Mango, CCK, you all are surely right. I should say that a tiny minority of "Mormons" practice plural marriage.

I lived in Steamboat Springs, Colorado for 18 years, which is right on the edge of Mormon country. In Utah all of the liquor stores are scarce and all state run, which is probably why I'm so bitter against the Mormon faith. I need to get past it.

In the 1500s, a pestering theologian instituted something called the Marriage Ordinance in Geneva, which made "state registration and church consecration" a dual requirement of matrimony.

We have yet to get over this mistake. But isn't it about time we freed marriage from the state?

Imagine if government had no interest in the definition of marriage. Individuals could commit to each other, head to the local priest or rabbi or shaman ? or no one at all ? and enter into contractual agreements, call their blissful union whatever they felt it should be called and go about the business of their lives.

I certainly don't believe that gay marriage will trigger societal instability or undermine traditional marriage ? we already have that covered ? but mostly I believe your private relationships are none of my business. And without any government role in the institution, it wouldn't be the business of the 9th Circuit Court, either.

Time for a divorce - The Denver Post

This is the one true solution, but unfortunately I've yet to find a thorough analysis of how one would do this and still maintain things like spousal benefits. Or what effects it would have on legal issues surrounding divorce.

Gnerally though, in a perfect world, the state would not recognize marraige at all.

CCK, my post which offended you started out acknowledging your point about current LDS policy against polygamy.

It went on to address Mormon polygamy speaking historically.

If I'm off then explain this-

Understanding Polygamy in Mormon History - For Dummies

Geo, I did not like your comparison between the molestation of children and the LDS church's history of once practicing polygamy.

Your link does a fair job of explaining that history, which I do not deny.

But believe me when I say that today, the practice of polygamy is not accepted by the LDS Church and any members who might start to practice polygamy (this is very, very uncommon) are immediately excommunicated. There are always going to be the wackos on the fringes of any organization--there are some in every religious group (and every anti-religious or non-religious group). But again, polygamist groups are not affiliated with the LDS Church in any way.

Mango, CCK, you all are surely right. I should say that a tiny minority of "Mormons" practice plural marriage.

I lived in Steamboat Springs, Colorado for 18 years, which is right on the edge of Mormon country. In Utah all of the liquor stores are scarce and all state run, which is probably why I'm so bitter against the Mormon faith. I need to get past it.

Lucky for you, the state of Utah recently overhauled its liquor laws and the Mormon church was not opposed.