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Cali Constitutional gay marriage ban struck down

30ashopper avatar
SoWal Insider
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SAN FRANCISCO ? A federal judge overturned California's gay-marriage ban Wednesday in a landmark case that could eventually force the U.S. Supreme Court to confront the question of whether same-sex couples have a constitutional right to wed.

The A.P. "wed" statement is a little misleading, at issue is whether or not states have the right to restrict marriage licenses based on the sex of the couple. The Judge felt California's Prop 8 was a civil rights violation, and struck the amendment down. The judge had this to say:

"Indeed, the evidence shows Proposition 8 does nothing more than enshrine in the California Constitution the notion that opposite-sex couples are superior to same-sex couples," the judge wrote in his 136-page ruling.

He also said proponents offered little evidence that they were motivated by anything other than animus toward gays ? beginning with their campaign to pass the ban, which included claims of wanting to protect children from learning about same-sex marriage in school.

"Proposition 8 played on the a fear that exposure to homosexuality would turn children into homosexuals and that parents should dread having children who are not heterosexual," Walker wrote.

Sound familiar? The ruling will be appealed to a federal court, (S.F. 9th circuit) after which it'll head to the Supreme Court. If the ruling holds, this will also likely strike down Florida's same sex marriage constitutional amendment. Something I would welcome.

Judge overturns Calif. gay marriage ban - Yahoo! News

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Replies

80
scooterbug44 avatar
SoWal Expert
#52
Camp Creek Kid, I understand where you are coming from, but the reality is that there are quite a few plural marriages in Utah and neighboring states by "Mormons." It creates major problems from a tax, welfare, social, and schooling standpoint.
Camp Creek Kid avatar
Christini Zambini
#53
Camp Creek Kid, I understand where you are coming from, but the reality is that there are quite a few plural marriages in Utah and neighboring states by "Mormons." It creates major problems from a tax, welfare, social, and schooling standpoint.

There are NO POLYGAMIST Mormons!!! I agree that polygamists create a huge problems from a tax, welfare, social, and school standpoint. However, these people have nothing to do with the LDS Church.
Geo avatar
Beach Fanatic
#54
Geo, I did not like your comparison between the molestation of children and the LDS church's history of once practicing polygamy.

Your link does a fair job of explaining that history, which I do not deny.

But believe me when I say that today, the practice of polygamy is not accepted by the LDS Church and any members who might start to practice polygamy (this is very, very uncommon) are immediately excommunicated. There are always going to be the wackos on the fringes of any organization--there are some in every religious group (and every anti-religious or non-religious group). But again, polygamist groups are not affiliated with the LDS Church in any way.

Once we get beyond the surface I actually believe we are on the same page. When I said "factions" I was referring to Mormon Fundamentalists, FLDS, etc. which share the same origins, history and heroes as LDS but (as you say) they are not LDS.

I do like the comparison between polygamy and father fondler(because of the harm they have both caused to innocents trusting church leadership). So I can't say I'm sorry for thinking it.

But know that I mean you no harm.
30ashopper avatar
SoWal InsiderAuthor
#55
Camp Creek Kid, I understand where you are coming from, but the reality is that there are quite a few plural marriages in Utah and neighboring states by "Mormons." It creates major problems from a tax, welfare, social, and schooling standpoint.

You mean the system isn't well designed to handle these arrangements. That's not the fault of the people practicing it. This is the core problem.
scooterbug44 avatar
SoWal Expert
#56
No, I am going to say that fathering a children with multiple "wifes" and then having the taxpayers support them because you cannot legally be married to all of them is not a failure of the system - but of the multiple wife idea.

And yes, the "official" stance of the Church of LDS is that polygamy is not allowed, but there are approximately 30,000 Mormons currently practicing it.
Camp Creek Kid avatar
Christini Zambini
#57
Once we get beyond the surface I actually believe we are on the same page. When I said "factions" I was referring to Mormon Fundamentalists, FLDS, etc. which share the same origins, history and heroes as LDS but (as you say) they are not LDS.

I do like the comparison between polygamy and father fondler(because of the harm they have both caused to innocents trusting church leadership). So I can't say I'm sorry for thinking it.

But know that I mean you no harm.

I still strongly disagree with your comparison.

The Mormon church has not practiced polygamy since 1890 and during the short period that it did, the marriages were between adults. Please understand that there NEVER was the practice of marrying off young girls and exploiting them as we see in some of the polygamist groups of today (such as recently in Texas). The practice of polygamy was ever only practiced by a very small minority of early Mormons. It was optional and nobody was ever forced to participate, so your assumption that "innocents" were harmed is false. Most often 2nd wives were widows with children or older women who had not married while young. Life was very hard for all 19th Century women, something that we can't even fathom today. But the Mormon Church believed then, as it does now, that girls are to be valued, protected, and educated. There was no exploitation of girls or women or any forced marriages of girls or women (whether polygamist or not).

This is not to say that there were no BAD marriages (or bad husbands or bad wives). But the Mormon church's practice of plural marriage was not the same as that of modern polygamist groups.
Camp Creek Kid avatar
Christini Zambini
#58
No, I am going to say that fathering a children with multiple "wifes" and then having the taxpayers support them because you cannot legally be married to all of them is not a failure of the system - but of the multiple wife idea.

And yes, the "official" stance of the Church of LDS is that polygamy is not allowed, but there are approximately 30,000 Mormons currently practicing it.

I'm sorry that I can't let this die, but why won't you all believe me when I say that there are no polygamist Mormons? You cannot be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and be a polygamist. The LDS Church DOES NOT ALLOW OR CONDONE POLYGAMY.
Alicia Leonard avatar
SoWal Insider
#59
Mango, CCK, you all are surely right. I should say that a tiny minority of "Mormons" practice plural marriage.

I lived in Steamboat Springs, Colorado for 18 years, which is right on the edge of Mormon country. In Utah all of the liquor stores are scarce and all state run, which is probably why I'm so bitter against the Mormon faith. I need to get past it.


You would have had an issue with Alabama as well and many of them have two families, but they don't know about each other unless the town is small:D
LuciferSam avatar
Banned
#60
I'm sorry that I can't let this die, but why won't you all believe me when I say that there are no polygamist Mormons? You cannot be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and be a polygamist. The LDS Church DOES NOT ALLOW OR CONDONE POLYGAMY.

Alright, so maybe by definition there are no card-carrying ANSI standard Mormon polygamists. But there are a bunch of serial wedders out in Utah who subscribe to the teachings of Joseph Smith.
Geo avatar
Beach Fanatic
#61
Hi CCK, let me clarify the comparison. It isn't inspired by the polygamist beliefs or practices of LDS. It is I'm reference to the modern day practice of the Mormon factions. There are well documented instances of abuse toward child brides and the "lost boys" who are left homeless after being kicked out of polygamist communities so the elders can have their pick of the young females.

Just like the priests in my analogy are the minority- the bad apples (nonetheless tragic), so too are the instances of modern day polygamy practiced by "fundamentalist Mormons".
30ashopper avatar
SoWal InsiderAuthor
#62
No, I am going to say that fathering a children with multiple "wifes" and then having the taxpayers support them because you cannot legally be married to all of them is not a failure of the system - but of the multiple wife idea.

I completely disagree. The system created these contraints, remove the constraints, and the problem goes away. Why are you so willing to discriminate against people with a different belief system than your own? Next thing you know you'll be claiming gays shouldn't be allowed to legally wed. ;-)
scooterbug44 avatar
SoWal Expert
#63
I'm sorry that I can't let this die, but why won't you all believe me when I say that there are no polygamist Mormons? You cannot be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and be a polygamist. The LDS Church DOES NOT ALLOW OR CONDONE POLYGAMY.

Yes, and the Catholic Church does not officially allow priests to marry, have sex, or molest children but ................... :wave:
scooterbug44 avatar
SoWal Expert
#64
I completely disagree. The system created these contraints, remove the constraints, and the problem goes away. Why are you so willing to discriminate against people with a different belief system than your own? Next thing you know you'll be claiming gays shouldn't be allowed to legally wed. ;-)

It is not about religious beliefs - it's about fathering/birthing children that I and other taxpayers have to pay to raise.

IF you can afford it (and want to be a crappy parent) you can have as many baby mommas as you want - just don't make ME pay for it!
30ashopper avatar
SoWal InsiderAuthor
#65
It is not about religious beliefs - it's about fathering/birthing children that I and other taxpayers have to pay to raise.

IF you can afford it (and want to be a crappy parent) you can have as many baby mommas as you want - just don't make ME pay for it!

By that logic, we shouldn't let gays that work for the government wed either, because then you would have to pay their spousal and descendent benefits.

Heck, why should we even let people have children if there's any risk you might have to pick up the tab for the few families that turn out have bad parents?
30ashopper avatar
SoWal InsiderAuthor
#66
My general point being, you're approaching this from the wrong angle. You have no right to restrict people's freedoms because some secondary system you designed is modeled incorrectly. It's the system that's broken, not the people trying to express themselves.
LuciferSam avatar
Banned
#67
Even with LDS monogamists, it's not unusual to see families with upwards of 10 kids, I've even heard of so much as 20. With that many children I would think the poor wife would be grateful for some relief from the bullpen.
scooterbug44 avatar
SoWal Expert
#68
My general point being, you're approaching this from the wrong angle. You have no right to restrict people's freedoms because some secondary system you designed is modeled incorrectly. It's the system that's broken, not the people trying to express themselves.

Which is where my reform of the welfare system to make it a TEMPORARY helping hand instead of a lifelong handout comes in. :wave:
Beach Fanatic
#69
A secular argument against gay marriage.

This is a nice short article arguing against gay marriage with absolutely no reference to religion or morals. It is from an MIT graduate student and is posted on MIT.edu (which means it's legit).
The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage - The Tech


I would post excerpts, but it is a short article and I think it should be read in its entirety.

I understand that it is just one person's opinion. But it is a very well explained and written opinion.

Also, a gay man's case against gay marriage.
http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2004/05/A-Gay-Mans-Case-Against-Gay-Marriage.aspx

Edited

30ashopper avatar
SoWal InsiderAuthor
#70
Which is where my reform of the welfare system to make it a TEMPORARY helping hand instead of a lifelong handout comes in. :wave:

You voted for the wrong team for that. ;-)
LuciferSam avatar
Banned
#71
This is a nice short article arguing against gay marriage with absolutely no reference to religion or morals. It is from an MIT graduate student and is posted on MIT.edu (which means it's legit).
The Secular Case Against Gay Marriage - The Tech


I would post excerpts, but it is a short article and I think it should be read in its entirety.

I understand that it is just one person's opinion. But it is a very well explained and written opinion.

Also, a gay man's case against gay marriage.
Gay men and lesbians have done great work on forming relationships outside marriage. Why stop now?- Beliefnet.com

I'll only comment on the first article . It never even attempts to explain why "propagation of society is a compelling state interest", and since when are state interests of such primary importance in a constitutional republic such as ours? Very, very weak. This is an individual rights issue. That's what our country is supposed to be based on. How quickly some forget. Furthermore, marriage and procreation are two completely different activities independent of each other. This article is secular, right?

Edited

Camp Creek Kid avatar
Christini Zambini
#72
Alright, so maybe by definition there are no card-carrying ANSI standard Mormon polygamists. But there are a bunch of serial wedders out in Utah who subscribe to the teachings of Joseph Smith.

And there are a bunch of terrorists who subscribe to the teachings of Mohammed.

Edited

futurebeachbum avatar
Beach Fanatic
#73
Alright, so maybe by definition there are no card-carrying ANSI standard Mormon polygamists. But there are a bunch of serial wedders out in Utah who subscribe to the teachings of Joseph Smith.

Forget the Mormons.

With double digit unemployment, massive underemployment, huge government debts and the tax loads that they generate becoming the new 'norm', we're going to start seeing people adopting polygamy/polyandry/polyamory lifestyles because a family unit is going to require multiple (more than 2) income streams to survive with an acceptable quality of life.

We're going to see such 'group arrangements' happening more and more in the coming years and it is going to pose interesting issues for health benefits, divorce, community property, etc...
Miss Critter avatar
Beach Fanatic
#74
the power of christ compels you

:lolabove:

I have a Great Aunt who's been married 13 times. All of them sacred. :wave:

Holy :eek:!

Does she know you CAN just date someone? :idontno:

How many times did she get divorced?

Pretty sure that was a typo. Lynnie probably meant to say "scared." :lol:
Alicia Leonard avatar
SoWal Insider
#75
Forget the Mormons.

With double digit unemployment, massive underemployment, huge government debts and the tax loads that they generate becoming the new 'norm', we're going to start seeing people adopting polygamy/polyandry/polyamory lifestyles because a family unit is going to require multiple (more than 2) income streams to survive with an acceptable quality of life.

We're going to see such 'group arrangements' happening more and more in the coming years and it is going to pose interesting issues for health benefits, divorce, community property, etc...


Amen, FBB. I was one of the un-divorced for a few years of limbo because of the new order of things. At first, I thought it was just me, but then I kept seeing more and more articles of couples living apart, but not divorcing due to sharing of benefits. I think you are right on the money about this.
Will B avatar
Moderator
#76
I'm sorry that I can't let this die, but why won't you all believe me when I say that there are no polygamist Mormons? You cannot be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and be a polygamist. The LDS Church DOES NOT ALLOW OR CONDONE POLYGAMY.

And southern Baptists aren't supposed to drink or dance, but I know a bunch who do!

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