Do ask do tell!

Actually throughout history, religions have been the direct cause of more suffering and death then I care to think about. The ability to tell right from wrong and act accordingly has more to do with good upbringing and parenting then abstract fears of otherworldly retribution.

Actually throughout history, religions have been the direct cause of more suffering and death then I care to think about. The ability to tell right from wrong and act accordingly has more to do with good upbringing and parenting then abstract fears of otherworldly retribution.

I would argue that good upbringing and lessons parents teach their kids in a society like ours is largely based on religious teachings and doctrine. What would you base these teachings on if religion was abandoned? It's an interesting question if you think about it. Can civil law implemented by a government body completely replace religious doctrine in defining the subject matter of good conscience? I think not.

(I understand religion has been abused by government or groups, but you're going to get that kind of abuse no matter what those groups use as justification.)

I was referring to fear of punishment.

We have the ability to feel right from wrong, but the subject matter for our conscience is learned. For most people that learned behavior is based on religion.

I've found people who grow up in a non-religious environment tend to lack good conscience, so I've always wondered what would life would be like in a society that had completely abandoned religion.

It's unfortunate but that is correct. Morality in our society for most people is based on a forcefully implanted mind virus known as religion. This disease is transmitted to young impressionable children and it gives them a totally warped view of their role in society.

It's unfortunate but that is correct. Morality in our society for most people is based on a forcefully implanted mind virus known as religion. This disease is transmitted to young impressionable children and it gives them a totally warped view of their role in society.

Ooookey dokie!

I was referring to fear of punishment.

We have the ability to feel right from wrong, but the subject matter for our conscience is learned. For most people that learned behavior is based on religion.

I've found people who grow up in a non-religious environment tend to lack good conscience, so I've always wondered what would life would be like in a society that had completely abandoned religion.

I find the opposite, fortunately I grew up next to a family that did not attend church and they were no different from the rest of the neighborhood. I credit this as the reason my young mind wasn't able to be poisoned by the argument everyone needs a religion. A religion is not needed for an orderly society.

Ooookey dokie!

It's the same virus that would make a libertarian like you think that government needs to instill its citizens with a sense of fear.

I find the opposite, fortunately I grew up next to a family that did not attend church and they were no different from the rest of the neighborhood. I credit this as the reason my young mind wasn't able to be poisoned by the argument everyone needs a religion. A religion is not needed for an orderly society.

I would contend that religion is only needed to help people deal with the fears, anxieties, and uncertainties that never would have existed had it not been for religious indoctrination in the first place.

I would contend that religion is only needed to help people deal with the fears, anxieties, and uncertainties that never would have existed had it not been for religious indoctrination in the first place.

I believe religion is typically more helpful to the believer than to those who would use religion as a tool. (Though I admit there are many in the latter group.)

IMO religious beliefs are how many get the strength to get through and to explain things far greater than our puny selves.

I believe religion is typically more helpful to the believer than to those who would use religion as a tool. (Though I admit there are many in the latter group.)

IMO religious beliefs are how many get the strength to get through and to explain things far greater than our puny selves.

To put the puny self in perspective all you have to do is look think about our massive timeless universe and realize that it will be expanding and changing long after we're gone.

To put the puny self in perspective all you have to do is look think about our massive timeless universe and realize that it will be expanding and changing long after we're gone.

YouTube - Galaxy Song

To put the puny self in perspective all you have to do is look think about our massive timeless universe and realize that it will be expanding and changing long after we're gone.

Actually, when they first came out with the Hubble photos aimed at a small quiet "starless" sector of the sky and took photos of billions of galaxies (not stars, galaxies) and estimated the number of galaxies at somewhere around 20 billion (maybe 200 billion- I'm not good at math)... about that time, I, for one, had an incredible insight (feeling?) that there is a higher power...that some incomprehensible force "caused" this reality. Maybe not the textbook definition of God, but you only have to stare out into the Limitless Sky and know this is all too much...

Gidget and Monty said it a lot better than I. :blink:

With the multiverse filled with infinite probabilities and beauty, I discount no possibilities...intelligent design included.

I still contend that the moral fabric of our nation is based largely on religious based teachings. I also fail to see how you go about replacing that with some other base and still end up with the moral code we generally uphold in the United States.

I still contend basic moral goodness is intrinsic to being human.

I still contend that the moral fabric of our nation is based largely on religious based teachings. I also fail to see how you go about replacing that with some other base and still end up with the moral code we generally uphold in the United States.

I absolutely agree. How do you raise children without moral fabric? Everything that feels good just go with it. You have children with piercings and tattoos and it just feels good so go with it. Parents today just do not care. Children see trash on TV and parents do not care. Children deserve more.

I agree with the statement that many of our country's moral ideas and laws were based on religious values/ideas.

However, most of those same values were based on non-religious ancient laws that were later adopted by religions.

Right and wrong are not solely religious (and are certainly not solely Christian) values - though some use religious scriptures to teach them.

Atheists can raise wonderful and moral people, and many churches contain major sinners.

People all over the world and throughout time have shared the same basic values of right and wrong, but did not share religions or even come into contact with those others.

I still contend basic moral goodness is intrinsic to being human.

How so? How is it defined, how does it manifest in a physical human being? Other animals on this planet do not exhibit the same characteristics, they don't have a conscience. What gives us this special sixth sense?

I agree with the statement that many of our country's moral ideas and laws were based on religious values/ideas.

However, most of those same values were based on non-religious ancient laws that were later adopted by religions.

I'd be willing to bet most ancient civilizations adopted some form of religion. Do you know of any that were based on civic vs. religious doctrine? I don't know of any.

Right and wrong are not solely religious (and are certainly not solely Christian) values - though some use religious scriptures to teach them.

If they aren't based on religious teachings, what were they based on? Intuition? This gets us into the realm of Darwin's theory - the survival of the fittest, community as a form of self preservation. This in turn promotes some form of religious belief. It's self perpetuating.

Atheists can raise wonderful and moral people,

In my experience this isn't necessarily the case. I'm not saying kids raised without religion turn out to be axe murderers, but I do think they have a tendency to over look important moral road blocks.

I would just hate to miss out on the presents since Jesus is the reason for the season. I have neighbors who don't recognize Jesus and thus don't celebrate Christmas is that normal for atheists and agnostics? That was a tounge in cheek response but I reaaly don't know what atheists and agnostics do. I have Jewish friends so I need no explanation there.

Shopper: Your generalization that religious beliefs are necessary for a truly moral backbone just doesn't hold up to the fact that millions, if not billions of non-religious people go about their lives in very moral lives. And, at the same time, millions, if not billions, of religious people harbor radical beliefs that harbor no compassion nor moral or ethical considerations for other human beings, simply because their religious beliefs differ from theirs. The Muslims and the Jews, for instance. The Shiites and the Sunnis, for instance. Do you call their hatred of each other moral? More hatred and intolerance have been generated by blind religious beliefs than has ever been generated by agnostic compassion for all living things.

I still contend that the moral fabric of our nation is based largely on religious based teachings. I also fail to see how you go about replacing that with some other base and still end up with the moral code we generally uphold in the United States.

You're failure to see another point of view doesn't give yours credibility.

Shopper: Your generalization that religious beliefs are necessary for a truly moral backbone just doesn't hold up to the fact that millions, if not billions of non-religious people go about their lives in very moral lives. And, at the same time, millions, if not billions, of religious people harbor radical beliefs that harbor no compassion nor moral or ethical considerations for other human beings, simply because their religious beliefs differ from theirs. The Muslims and the Jews, for instance. The Shiites and the Sunnis, for instance. Do you call their hatred of each other moral? More hatred and intolerance have been generated by blind religious beliefs than has ever been generated by agnostic compassion for all living things.

The use of religion to do harm isn't the issue. That's a case of lost or misguided moral compass. The question I am raising is, can you have a positive moral code in a society without religious belief as the basis. If you remove religion what do you replace it with? Is it ingrained for instance? If so, what are the guiding principles?

In my experience this isn't necessarily the case. I'm not saying kids raised without religion turn out to be axe murderers, but I do think they have a tendancy to over look important moral road blocks.

Moral roadblocks are bad, so overlooking them is good. Please lose the talking points.

I was referring to fear of punishment.

We have the ability to feel right from wrong, but the subject matter for our conscience is learned. For most people that learned behavior is based on religion.

I've found people who grow up in a non-religious environment tend to lack good conscience, so I've always wondered what would life would be like in a society that had completely abandoned religion.

I'm sorry, but my experience tells me that's nonsense. you do not need religion to know not to be a sociopathic wall street type.

Moral roadblocks are bad, so overlooking them is good. Please lose the talking points.

So, if you decide to rape a woman because you're horny, or kill a man for his money, or steal a stick of gum from the local store because you can't afford to purchase it, in your view overlooking any moral road blocks regarding those acts is a "good thing." Interesting. (You're an athiest, correct? 😀)