13,000 protest Governor's plan to change collective bargaining for public employees

Andy, while you were serving in Vietnam my husband and I were serving overseas as well...I was both a protester and a supporter of the military. The two are not mutually exclusive...

The protests helped end the war and I am proud to have been a part of that--I only wish we had been able to help stop it before so many of my friends and family died.

I spent long hours in the Navy hospital helping care for wounded military--just off the medivac plane from SE Asia...and most of them would have welcomed a protest to end the hell they had just survived.

Yes, there were some people with their own agendas, there always are...but, I am just as proud of those young people in Wisconsin today(two of them are relatives of friends of mine) as I was of my friends and neighbors of the sixties--they are not what is wrong with our country today-- in fact, they just may help get it back to a rational place.

I stated earlier that "this was the last I say on the subject", but I cannot let this pass without a response. First of all, I am not going to argue with you about our different takes on the ideals, philosophies and principles that make this country tick. It is fruitless as well as a exercise in futility. You have your opinion and I have mine and that is fine. I will continue to express mine for those who lurk here so that they are aware there is more than one opinion express on this board.
Now, I was expressing my opposition to those who protested the war. It is my firm belief they caused the loss of at least seven aircraft and 14 crew members from my unit to be in vain and that was just in the first two month of my first tour. I am sorry you disagree with that assumption but I have it, nevertheless. Things like Jane Fonda sitting on a cannon in Hanoi will be with me as long as I live.
I certainly appreciate you and your husband caring for those evacuated from SE Asia by medivac. Maybe I was one of those and it would have been a great help to any airevaced from Vietnam. I also would have been one that did not welcome the protest that was, in my mind, causing my buddies to die, for what I considered, in vain. I forgoed a promotion and ten more years in the military because I did not want to return to Vietnam for a third tour, not because I was afraid of dying but because I was not going to die for a conflict we were obviously not trying to win.
BTW, I was not alone in this belief. As a major and friend of mine said one night while sitting at the bar in the Hawk's nest, "Andy you know what its going to take to get me back here for a 3rd tour". I said, "No, Joe, what". "Its going to take three sets of orders, one sending me over here, and one each for the two MPs who escort me on and off the plane".
As you are aware, there are definitely two sides to any situation. This is my side and regardless what you and your left leaning friends think, it is every bit as valid as yours. It is very simple. You think you were right and I think I, and those on my side were. We, in my opinion, disgraced ourselves, left the Vietnamese people in the lurch and created a situation that it took years from which to recover. But you're right. We ended the war but it my mind, disgracefully.
Many will disagree with this and that is their right as Americans. I believe that to a great degree, we have misplaced the pride and determination for self betterment in this county.
I certainly recognize and appreciate that you and poppy served our country. Both liberals, conservatives and those with no political pursuasion served. May it always be so.
One last thing. I do not subscribe to your contention that protests against the military and support of them are mutually exclusive. Once again, this is a difference of opinion between us. I will close with this. While I respect your obvious intelligence and freedom of opinion, on this issue, as well as many others, I most certainly disagree, which is my right just as it is yours to express whatever you wish. I only ask to be allowed to freely express my side of the issue.

Holy cow- I think this deserves its own thread. I think this is going to be HUGE!

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Scott Walker falls for a prank phone call, and Donald Rumsfeld recalls the lead up to the Iraq war.

February 23, 2011 - Donald Rumsfeld - The Daily Show With Jon Stewart - Full Episode Video | Comedy Central


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Good for Daniels. For a long time, the idea that minority voices had the right to take strong stands for what they believe in was one of the cornerstones of American democracy. (and why the US Senate has the quirks it does) The whole 'the winners should get to do anything they want' we're seeing lately really is a shift in the concept of American democracy.

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The Wisconsin Assembly passed Gov Walker?s union bill in the middle of the night last night allowing only seconds for a vote. (It would have passed anyway, so it's curious why they would want to anger people even more by surprising the assembly democrats with the call to vote and shutting it off in seconds. That I don't get.)

Here?s an informative interview with John Nickols, correspondent for the Nation Magazine on the progression of the protest. Even more republicans have joined the protest now, which is expected to be upward of 100,000 on Saturday with groups protesting around the country tomorrow also.



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I don't care if they walk, if they are doing what they think is right then so be it. I just don't want to hear liberals complain when conservatives do the same things. ( remember the whining last summer about filibusters?)
Also, you have to face consequences for standing on your convictions- if they don't come to work they should not get paid. I don't get paid if I don't work, why are they any better?

I think the difference between this and the filibustering is that there is a very real purpose to the current protests and the walkout by the state senators. The is a very real perceived threat of immediate harm to the livelihoods of the state workers, and they are justifiably taking action. The senators, who happen to agree with their stance, are making the correct moral decision. Fleeing the state is their only legal means.

On the other hand, the Republican filibustering was nothing more than politically motivated obstructionism. The WI protests emanate from some very real issues at the grass-roots level, while the party of "No" sillyblustering was just an attempt to weaken the Democratic party. In conjunction with a number of scare tactics, they were successful judging by the midterm results. I don' think their tactics are going to help them much where it really counts, which is the 2012 Presidential election. On that count, I think their efforts will have proven to be a failure. I can't grasp why they think continuously trying to vilify the middle class in possible swing states is going to help them.

Video: Wisconsin Soldier Fights On ? Greenline: The AFSCME Blog

?If freedom is worth dying for overseas,? said Millard, ?then it?s definitely worth rallying and fighting for here in Wisconsin. All workers deserve the freedom to be in a union and collectively bargain.?

another person who is willing to stand up for what he believes in...

I don' think their tactics are going to help them much where it really counts, which is the 2012 Presidential election. On that count, I think their efforts will have proven to be a failure. I can't grasp why they think continuously trying to vilify the middle class in possible swing states is going to help them.

Me either.

According to a poll on Faux news (I'm tired of arguing about sources) 66% of Americans support the protestors.

(Of course they flipped the numbers the first time they showed it - which is why I saw the clip on the Daily Show).

Video: Wisconsin Soldier Fights On ? Greenline: The AFSCME Blog

another person who is willing to stand up for what he believes in...

Odd statement considering Wisconsin civil union members aren't losing their right to join a union or their right to collectively bargain over wages. One of the things they are gaining is the freedom to not join and support a union if they chose too. Civil union management is steadfast against giving people that freedom, claiming people benefit from the work the union does and therefore must be forced to pay dues regardless.

There are two sides to every story of course, Walker's bill does add new restrictions. I guess it all comes down to who can shout the loudest.

I think this will help the GOP in 2012 regardless of who they pick. This could be the first of many union dominos to fall.

I think this will help the GOP in 2012 regardless of who they pick. This could be the first of many union dominos to fall.

To the detriment of every working man and woman in America.

According to the Wall Street Journal for the two years from January 2009 through December 2010, worker productivity-measured by output per hour-rose at an annual rate of 4 percent. Corporate profits increased at a 30 percent annual rate in the same period. The average wage grew 2 percent annually.

When corporate managers make poor decisions they ask and recieve union concessions, now that they are getting filthy rich on the workers backs they want to break the unions and not share the spoils. The Republicans are doing all they can to see they achieve their goal.

I stated earlier that "this was the last I say on the subject", but I cannot let this pass without a response. First of all, I am not going to argue with you about our different takes on the ideals, philosophies and principles that make this country tick. It is fruitless as well as a exercise in futility. You have your opinion and I have mine and that is fine. I will continue to express mine for those who lurk here so that they are aware there is more than one opinion express on this board.
Now, I was expressing my opposition to those who protested the war. It is my firm belief they caused the loss of at least seven aircraft and 14 crew members from my unit to be in vain and that was just in the first two month of my first tour. I am sorry you disagree with that assumption but I have it, nevertheless. Things like Jane Fonda sitting on a cannon in Hanoi will be with me as long as I live.
I certainly appreciate you and your husband caring for those evacuated from SE Asia by medivac. Maybe I was one of those and it would have been a great help to any airevaced from Vietnam. I also would have been one that did not welcome the protest that was, in my mind, causing my buddies to die, for what I considered, in vain. I forgoed a promotion and ten more years in the military because I did not want to return to Vietnam for a third tour, not because I was afraid of dying but because I was not going to die for a conflict we were obviously not trying to win.
BTW, I was not alone in this belief. As a major and friend of mine said one night while sitting at the bar in the Hawk's nest, "Andy you know what its going to take to get me back here for a 3rd tour". I said, "No, Joe, what". "Its going to take three sets of orders, one sending me over here, and one each for the two MPs who escort me on and off the plane".
As you are aware, there are definitely two sides to any situation. This is my side and regardless what you and your left leaning friends think, it is every bit as valid as yours. It is very simple. You think you were right and I think I, and those on my side were. We, in my opinion, disgraced ourselves, left the Vietnamese people in the lurch and created a situation that it took years from which to recover. But you're right. We ended the war but it my mind, disgracefully.
Many will disagree with this and that is their right as Americans. I believe that to a great degree, we have misplaced the pride and determination for self betterment in this county.
I certainly recognize and appreciate that you and poppy served our country. Both liberals, conservatives and those with no political pursuasion served. May it always be so.
One last thing. I do not subscribe to your contention that protests against the military and support of them are mutually exclusive. Once again, this is a difference of opinion between us. I will close with this. While I respect your obvious intelligence and freedom of opinion, on this issue, as well as many others, I most certainly disagree, which is my right just as it is yours to express whatever you wish. I only ask to be allowed to freely express my side of the issue.

we have no business invading and occupying other countries in the name of politics. vietnam was not enough to teach us to avoid this stupidity. the trillion dollars borrowed for iraq/afghanistan may not be enough as well. only when redneck philosophy is trampled down will we be free of letting the most violent among us seal our fate.

we have no business invading and occupying other countries in the name of politics. vietnam was not enough to teach us to avoid this stupidity. the trillion dollars borrowed for iraq/afghanistan may not be enough as well. only when redneck philosophy is trampled down will we be free of letting the most violent among us seal our fate.

I didn't know Kennedy was a redneck. You learn something new every day. 😀 Was Jackie a redneck too?

Realistically, containment was valid. It may have worn out it's welcome but it has served us well over the years.

To the detriment of every working man and woman in America.

According to the Wall Street Journal for the two years from January 2009 through December 2010, worker productivity-measured by output per hour-rose at an annual rate of 4 percent. Corporate profits increased at a 30 percent annual rate in the same period. The average wage grew 2 percent annually.

When corporate managers make poor decisions they ask and recieve union concessions, now that they are getting filthy rich on the workers backs they want to break the unions and not share the spoils. The Republicans are doing all they can to see they achieve their goal.

these charts do a good job of showing the situation:
It's the Inequality, Stupid | Mother Jones

these charts do a good job of showing the situation:
It's the Inequality, Stupid | Mother Jones

Gee what's next, a 5-4 Supreme Court decision to allow Corporations to spend as much money as they want to support or oppose candidates for Congress and the presidency?:sarc:

Gee what's next, a 5-4 Supreme Court decision to allow Corporations to spend as much money as they want to support or oppose candidates for Congress and the presidency?:sarc:

Corporations use profits stolen from shareholders to fund their favorite politicians....
Unions use dues stolen from members to fund their favorite politicians.
Two sides of the same coin, both are equally wrong. Both are damaging to our country.