Gen Motors -- World's Largest Private Purchaser of Viagra (Bailout of what?)

[30ashopper]

Got screwed or screwed themselves, language doesn't matter so much in that sense. The problem was that no one in 1967 could really anticipate the way health care would change and the way health care cost would utterly skyrocket 20 years later.

I think pensions also play a major role - think about it, you work for a company and after you leave they promise you a paycheck for life with cost of living increases. That's crazy. If these folks didn't have these promises, they would have saved for their own retirement and spent less when they were earning. A much more stable long term situation imho.

 

[30ashopper]

Boo freakin' hoo! :roll:

You are allowed to renegotiate or revisit items, you know.

We learned that one the hard way - Dad was quite pissed when scholarships for employees kids got slashed/eliminated a couple of years before I went to college.

He had already put in over 20 years at a 100% union plant at that point, so don't tell me you can't change anything!

Even when you have to deal with a union that can blackmail a company by pulling every worker off the line for years without legal recourse? I think the unions rein supreme in these negotiations - what they want, they get. They only start making concessions when the company's future is threatened. I really don't think they give a damn about the company making good on their bottom line - GM has been loosing money for over a decade and I haven't heard any reports of the UAW proclaiming "something must be done to save GM" until now.

 

[scooterbug44]

UAW threatens to strike, GM threatens to close the plant, hire cheaper workers etc. Health care and pensions have been revisited and changed multiple times between auto makers and the unions.

Don't try to pin all of the blame for a failed business model and decades of stupidity on people wanting pension plans or health care.

This is years of shortsighted decisions and bad (yet highly compensated) management coming home to roost!

 

[Matt J]

There's got to be a happy medium. If you eliminate pensions all together then the Unions will want additional compensation for 401k's. I prefer the idea of a 401k over a traditional pension. Keep in mind that when most of the major corporations that are paying pensions today didn't think the employees would live this long.

I still don't agree with doing away with unions completely, you might as well start rationing the coal out in thimbles now. It's funny how people bash unions, but forget that unions helped to create the largest class level in this country. That would be the middle class. Clearly not everything about unions is perfect, but neither is government or corporations for that matter. Why is it we always seem to jump way to the other side when something doesn't work instead of examining it and seeing what could make it work?

 

[Here4Good]

I don't know how UAW pensions worked, but my father had a pension from his job (police officer); he had to contribute to the pension fund from day 1, and in the beginning it was so expensive (since they also had to pay for their own uniforms) my mother worked a part time job just to pay for the pension contribution and uniform costs. My father worked two full-time jobs for almost six years after he joined the police force because the pay was so low.

The police job was ALL about the pension and the healthcare - that was the entire point of working the job. For the first 10 years, the pay was awful, the hours were awful and unpredictable. If you made it through that, the pay started to get better - he was able to work overtime and drop the second job. By years 20-30, it was a good job, except for the people wanting to kill you part.

Yes, the pension he ended up with after 30 years was pretty good, but I don't think it was "free".

I also don't understand the lifetime healthcare thing - my dad had that also, but as soon as he qualified for Medicare, it became little more than a prescription plan. Why is the UAW still paying healthcare for retirees over 65? Or are their drug costs THAT high?

 

[Smiling JOe]

GM is operating with union labor, being paid about $80 per hour (before overtime), and GM loses money,somewhere around $3000, with each sale of a vehicle, and sales are almost non-existent currently. On the other hand, Toyota's plants in the US are non-union, and their employees are making around $45 per hour, and Toyota is moving cars and actually making profit on each sale. GM is being pumped with Fed tax dollars to keep jobs, over-payed jobs, to sell products at losses. That is effed up big time. If the gov't wants to keep jobs here, they should reward companies like Toyota who create jobs which in turn make profitable businesses that are self-sufficient. The Union takes much of that difference in the two pay checks, and I think that no one can argue that Toyota's non-union labor isn't being paid enough. $94,000 per employee per year is pretty darn good pay.

If the people will wake up and b*tch and moan to their elected officials about the gov't rewarding failing behavior, we would better off. In fact, it might be cheaper for the US to simply pay the wages directly to GM employees, letting the business fail, rather than propping up a failing business which has no foreseeable success in the future.

 

[poppy]

UAW threatens to strike, GM threatens to close the plant, hire cheaper workers etc. Health care and pensions have been revisited and changed multiple times between auto makers and the unions.

Don't try to pin all of the blame for a failed business model and decades of stupidity on people wanting pension plans or health care.

This is years of shortsighted decisions and bad (yet highly compensated) management coming home to roost!

I agree with the above statement. Don't blame the worker, they just build what management tells them to build.

I have never been a member of a union but I know many who are and they will tell you management doesn't seem to care about anything except the bottom line. They had to fight for years to achieve safe, decent working conditions and pay along with disability, health care, and retirement.

When foreign cars first came to our shores they sold them because they were cheap, not because they were better. I purchased a 1974 Honda and I can tell you first hand it was a piece of crap. My dad bought a 1966 VW for a second car in 1966 because it was cheaper than American, although it was a fine vehicle. We all remember the Yugo. As time passed foreign car quality surpassed that of the big three much to their surprise. In the 1980's Detroit started to improve quality and I think they did a pretty good job of it.

With so many foreign brands manufactured here it's hard to say what is foreign anymore. Is made in America the same as American Made?

Bailing out Detroit is a tough call for me. I'm not sure if wouldn't be more money down the drain. The failing of these companies will affect millions of people but what guarantee do we have that managemant will be successful this time around. It is a really tough call IMO.

I purchased my last foreign car in 1981, it was a Mazda. Since then I have owned cars from each of the big three. All have been very well made cars.
The car my wife drives is ten years old and still going strong.

Out of curiosity how many out there drive foreign vs. domestic.

 

[Minnie]

I do find it interesting that GM pays it workers almost twice what Toyota does and yet Toyota's cars cost so much more than GM. Someone at Toyota is making the big bucks.

Believe me Toyota has gotten plenty of governmental assistance. Just let a Toyota plant come to your area and you will see just how much they do receive. But be aware your area might not be smart enough, have traditional enough values, etc. to satisfy Toyota.

As to unions they were needed when they were formed, now, many have just completely taken over companies and have them in a situation where they have the control. At my husband's job, management is not union and when the union gets what they want, cuts are made to nonunion to cover the expense. All of his workers have better pay and benefits. None of the union workers ever apply for managment jobs at their company. That should tell them something. A union worker at his plant would have to kill someone to get fired.

 

[idlewind]

I have a chevy that was made overseas, a GMC, a Nissan, and a KIA. They are all good vehicles and serve their purpose ( one is a work truck) The newest is the KIA and I simply purchased it due to price. So I guess I am kinda half and half.

I prefer to buy American, but I also prefer a competitive price. If GM cannot make a quality vehicle that consumers want, at a fair price, then let them go out of business. The workers will migrate to where the companies are that can provide what consumers want at a price they can afford.

As to pensions, there should be a law ( horrors, I am suggesting regulation) that requires companies who promise a pension to deposit funds into a trust that an actuary says is adequate to fund said pension. The company should then have no ability to "raid" the pension account for operating or expansion funds.

 

[idlewind]

I do find it interesting that GM pays it workers almost twice what Toyota does and yet Toyota's cars cost so much more than GM. Someone at Toyota is making the big bucks.

Believe me Toyota has gotten plenty of governmental assistance. Just let a Toyota plant come to your area and you will see just how much they do receive. But be aware your area might not be smart enough, have traditional enough values, etc. to satisfy Toyota.

Where are you buying GM vehicles that are cheaper than Toyodas? And how can you finance them? I heard yesterday that GM will not finance if your credit rating is less than 700. That rules out about 2/3's of their potential customers right off the bat.