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seaside2

Beach Fanatic
Apr 2, 2007
785
12
All over the place
Singinchicken has a good point. For those that can afford private healthcare plans and are forced to go to a universal plan, it is a real negative.

Lil Seaside worked in Londo a few years ago, got an upper respiratory infection and like to have died (figuratively) before she got to see an MD. When she got there, it was cheap, but what if it had been serious?

Hear lots of horror stories from Canada too.

I guess if it was simple, the issue would have been resolved long ago.

At the same time, we do have a form of universal healthcare coverage: The emergency room and indigent care, and we all know how that works!
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
Pharmaceutical companies are selling the exact same drugs in Europe and Canada but charging Americans more than double the price.

Health plans will also be required to disclose the percentage of premiums that go to patient care as opposed to administrative costs.

....two companies dominate a full third of the national market.

Thanks for the great post!

I don't understand how they are allowed to sell at different prices, but I'm guessing it has something to do w/ all of the lobbyists and campaign contributions. :roll:

The bigger the company, the more $ spent on admin. Giant corporations never benefit the general public. :angry:

How much of the market does the company have to control before it becomes an anti-trust issue? :dunno:
 

30A Skunkape

Skunky
Jan 18, 2006
10,314
2,349
55
Backatown Seagrove
Citizens Against Government Waste Media Director Leslie Paige is scheduled to appear on ?CBS Evening News with Katie Couric? tomorrow, Friday, February 8, at 6:30 p.m. EST. Leslie will be discussing improper payments in the Medicare system and the Recovery Audit Contractor Program's success in recouping hundreds of millions of dollars in overpayments from hospitals and other healthcare providers in California, Florida, and New York.


Program Details:

Date: Friday, February 8, 2008
Time: 6:30 p.m. EST
Guest: CAGW Media Director Leslie K. Paige
Topic: Improper payments in the Medicare program
Program: "CBS Evening News with Katie Couric"
Network: CBS
 

rapunzel

Beach Fanatic
Nov 30, 2005
2,514
980
Point Washington
Comparison and Contrast of the Plans


“Two possible reasons why people don’t have health coverage are usually given. One is that the uninsured are gaming the system. The other is that they can’t afford it and don’t know where to get it. Most of the literature suggests that the explanation is mostly the latter. That means the single biggest thing we can do to help the uninsured is to make coverage affordable and accessible.” -David Cutler, Professor of Applied Economics at Harvard and Senior Health Policy Advisor to the Obama Campaign.

Gaming the System
Paul Krugman best articulated the argument for mandates in a recent op-ed piece in the NY Times. He states, "under the Obama plan, as it now stands, healthy people could choose not to buy insurance — then sign up for it if they developed health problems later. Insurance companies couldn’t turn them away, because Mr. Obama’s plan, like those of his rivals, requires that insurers offer the same policy to everyone. As a result, people who did the right thing and bought insurance when they were healthy would end up subsidizing those who didn’t sign up for insurance until or unless they needed medical care." This is a good point that is repeatedly made by supporters of the Clinton plan. Under the Obama plan it would be possible to wait until you are sick to enroll. This would indeed be a burden on the system if a huge number of people failed to get insurance and only had an initial contact with the health care system once they had a catastrophic illness.

I have always dismissed this concern to some extent because I believe most people will have to initially utilize healthcare for something emergent but not extremely expensive, and because I believe most people find going uninsured to be a source of tremendous anxiety. First, the first encounter is much more likely to result from a sprained ankle or a bad case of the flu than an initial diagnosis of cancer. The vast majority of the uninsured are young and healthy. If they are not paying, they are not utilizing the system. As an example, I went without health insurance for a few months after Katrina. I had an accident on a Vespa -- I hit a iron fence and banged my head badly, hurt my knee, and thought my arm was broken. I didn't go to the emergency room, I went and took some Tylenol, cleaned my knee carefully, and iced my arm for 24 hours. If I'd gone to the emergency room, that one encounter would have cost more than my yearly premiums, because I'd have had to have lots of x-rays and a cat scan and an observation admission to the hospital. If my arm had been broken and I'd had no choice but to go, I would have been guilty of gaming the system once, but then I'd be enrolled and I've not had another emergent need for healthcare in two years. Of course, when I was on the ground trapped under that Vespa my head was ringing and I wasn't clear what had happened I had one thought -- I don't have insurance. It was that thought that I had every time I got behind the wheel of my car, every time I went jogging. Every time I had a headache or a small pain in my lower left belly, that anxiety would feel like a boulder on my chest. I know that if I'd had access to an affordable policy, I would have not hesitated for a moment. I imagine most people going without insurance feel the same way.

However, as Krugman states, the removal of pre-existing exclusions would take away the motivation of the sword hanging over the head of the uninsured. Clearly, that would have to be addressed, and there would have to be a penalty for those who wait until they are sick to enroll in a program. Obama has mentioned a penalty such as fines of the equivalent of six months premiums (the current pre-existing waiting period), some people have suggested taxing the value of the first three months' utilization as income. Clearly, this problem will have to be addressed when legislation is drafted but can be overcome without resorting to mandates to be effective.

Free Markets -- Good or Bad?
Paul Krugman recently criticized the Obama plan, "castigating" Obama, saying "he’s echoing right-wing talking points on health care." The Clinton campaign says his plan endorses "Reaganomics" over universal coverage. I think most Americans prefer a system with choice and will respond favorably to a plan that lowers the barriers of cost and access to health insurance whether private or public. Cutler sums it up this way, “the mandate argument is: You must buy something – but I’m not going to tell you what it is, how much it will cost, or where you’re going to get it.” The supporters of mandates advocate requiring proof of health insurance be submitted with income tax returns, and that the uninsured be automatically enrolled in the Congressional Health Plan. Opponents of mandates argue that you can automatically enroll people in health plans, but if they aren't affordable people won't pay the premiums. The pro-mandate analysts admit there will have to be fines and penalties, and many (including Clinton) have mentioned that it may be necessary to garnish people's wages to assure compliance. That amounts to a regressive tax, but by a different name.

A further point of contrast in the plans -- the Obama utilizes the market and competition through the insurance exchange while the Clinton plan focuses solely on adding people to the Congressional Health Plan. It is important to utilize the market to insure that those who are entering the system have access not just to health care, but to good quality, cost effective health care. Some of you may remember my theory of the three tier system (here -- [ame="http://sowal.com/bb/showpost.php?p=250596&postcount=38"]http://sowal.com/bb/showpost.php?p=250596&postcount=38[/ame])
We have to ask ourselves, if we want universal healthcare, which tier do we plan to add people to? Which tier is going to justify asking (or forcing) them to pay 10% of their income? The Obama plan seeks to add people to the second tier, while I believe the Clinton plan expands the third tier.

Finally, I encourage everyone to look at the plans themselves.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/summary.aspx

The plans may be very similar with the exception of mandates, but the approaches could not be more different. The Clinton plan approaches the problems of health care as though they are all a matter of policy easily fixed with more legislation. The Obama plan specifies many areas to be targeted for reform. The Clinton plans sees the health system as one in need of a little tweaking, while the Obama plan aims to fix many of the fundamental flaws that are creating excessive profits in some parts of the healthcare system, while starving other of funds. The Obama plan makes cost and access the first priority, while the Clinton plan makes access and mandatory enrollment the priority. Which brings us back to the question -- when Americans say they want "universal healthcare," how do they define universal?

Next post -- The foreseeable consequences of the two plans.
 
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rapunzel

Beach Fanatic
Nov 30, 2005
2,514
980
Point Washington
If so, why are Latino people standing behind her? Wouldn't they be disproportionately affected? What am I missing????

and PS When did they become Latino anyway, wouldn't that just refer to the people from Latin America?

To be honest, I'm not sure why Latino people are so strongly behind her.

As for how the plan will affect them, I don't know many poor people who have 10% of their income to spare. For someone making $8 an hour, $130 a month is still a lot of money. Perhaps they assume that the 10% of income rule won't apply across the board, and that they will benefit from subsidies. If so, that is certainly reading between the lines of her plan.

To be honest, I think most poor or uninsured people, Latino or otherwise, just hear "universal" and "everyone will be covered" and don't really ask for the details.

Most new immigrant groups generally look to community leaders to help them determine which candidate will be most beneficial for their group. The Irish, Germans, and Italians all did it and now the newest wave of immigrants is doing the same thing. If you moved to Mexico tomorrow, would you support the PRI or PAN? Here, the Clintons have benefited from their experience with national campaigns and her long-standing front-runner status. She received pledges of support from Latino leaders way before anyone considered Obama a viable candidate.

As for when they became Latinos, I think that goes back to identity-based politics of the 60?s. Obama?s plan is his plan for the American people. Hillary Clinton?s website has a link from the healthcare plan to this page http://www.hillaryclinton.com/files/pdf/latino_impactreport.pdf which describes how her plan effects Latinos. The whole ?Latinos won?t vote for a black person? talking point coming out of her campaign is such a throwback. It?s an outmoded way of dividing and conquering the electorate, and just one of the many tactics born out of late 1960?s campus liberalism that I am so sick of.:roll:

Or did you mean Latinos instead of Hispanics? Maybe some Spanish people took exception with that label?:dunno:
 

rapunzel

Beach Fanatic
Nov 30, 2005
2,514
980
Point Washington
I finally found the FEP image!:clap:

normal_beetlejuice134.jpg
 

pmd8

Beach Lover
Jul 27, 2005
142
25
U.S. ranks lowest in patient satisfaction


Businessweek created a slideshow depicting the best countries for healthcare. According to Businessweek:

Among seven nations surveyed, the U.S. ranks lowest in patient satisfaction with overall medical care

30% of U.S. respondents said that they had to pay more than $1000 in out-of-pocket medical costs last year, while 1/3 of those surveyed from the U.S. said that the healthcare system needs to be completely revamped.

Top countries
1. Australia
National spending per capita: $3, 128
Percentage of National GDP: 9.5%
Healthcare System needs to be rebuilt completely: 18% think so

2. Canada
National spending per capita: $3, 326
Percentage of National GDP: 9.8%
Healthcare System needs to be rebuilt completely: 12% think so

3. Germany
National spending per capita: $3, 287
Percentage of National GDP: 10.7%
Healthcare System needs to be rebuilt completely: 27% think so

4. Netherlands
National spending per capita: $3, 094
Percentage of National GDP: 9.2%
Healthcare System needs to be rebuilt completely: 9% think so

5. New Zealand
National spending per capita: $2, 343
Percentage of National GDP: 9.0%
Healthcare System needs to be rebuilt completely: 17% think so

6. England
National spending per capita: $2, 724
Percentage of National GDP: 8.3%
Healthcare System needs to be rebuilt completely: 15% think so

7. United States
National spending per capita: $6,697
Percentage of National GDP: 16%
Healthcare System needs to be rebuilt completely: 34% think so


As a physician, I favor universal health care.

Try getting insurance if you're a diabetic.

Currently the uninsured tend to use the emergency department for their primary care, which is unbelievably expensive. Often a condition is allowed to progress until it's more expensive to fix. We end up paying for their care anyway.

Eliminating for-profit insurance companies and having a single-payer system would save a huge amount of money. I can just see the lobbyists letting this happen.

Often exaggerated stories of delays in elective procedures in Canada and England are cited, but for the most part citizens are happier with their medical systems than we are.

If my income is less, so be it.
 
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Jdarg

SoWal Expert
Feb 15, 2005
18,039
1,984
pmed8- thanks for this. I was wondering if there was information on the dissatisfaction of Americans with our current healthcare system, or lack thereof. For every "anecdote" about a Canadian getting screwed, I hear 3 about people in the US.
 

rapunzel

Beach Fanatic
Nov 30, 2005
2,514
980
Point Washington
As a physician, I favor universal health care.

Try getting insurance if you're a diabetic.

Currently the uninsured tend to use the emergency department for their primary care, which is unbelievably expensive. Often a condition is allowed to progress until it's more expensive to fix. We end up paying for their care anyway.

Eliminating for-profit insurance companies and having a single-payer system would save a huge amount of money. I can just see the lobbyists letting this happen.

Often exaggerated stories of delays in elective procedures in Canada and England are cited, but for the most part citizens are happier with their medical systems than we are.

If my income is less, so be it.

I agree with your support for universal care, and I think that the provision that gets rid of denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions that both Democratic candidates support is a good thing.

However, I have to ask why a single payor system is preferable to a market based system with regulation and oversight? As a physician, do you feel the implementation of CMS' regional-based relative value scale has helped or hindered your practice? Do you find it an effective way to foster quality care?
 
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