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scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
Very long and well documented post. Could you please highlight where it says that the minimum wage keeps black teenagers unemployed? It just says that many think the minimum wage laws hurt those they are designed to help, then talks how hard it is to prove that.
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
This isn't the article I read, but it addresses the situation.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/01/01/good_waves?mode=PF

Good waves
If there's a link between urban crime and immigration, sociologists say, it's probably not what you think
By Drake Bennett | January 1, 2006

AMONG OTHER THINGS, 2005 was the year that the Boston Miracle seemed to become a distant memory. The storied drop in the city's murder rate in the 1990s had drawn scholars, politicians, and police chiefs from around the country to observe and learn from Boston's crime-fighting prowess. But the murder rate has been climbing since it bottomed out in 1999, and this year it jumped to a 10-year high. Coming at a time when murder rates continued to fall in other big cities like Chicago and New York, the upsurge has sent local politicians scrambling for solutions, and examining what it was that worked so well last time.

To be sure, people have been dissecting and disputing the causes of the dramatic nationwide '90s decline in crime since it first showed up as a trend. Some credit innovative policing policies or tougher sentencing, others point to improving economic conditions or an aging population, still others the end of the crack epidemic.

The fact that the 1990s also saw one of the greatest influxes of immigrants in the country's history isn't often mentioned in these discussions. Crime, it has long been assumed, is one of the inevitable costs of immigration. As George W. Grayson, a government professor at the College of William & Mary, wrote in the Washington Post opinion pages this summer, ''the evidence is overwhelming that an influx of poor immigrants-whether Italians, Irish, or Poles in the 19th and early 20th centuries or Hispanics in the late 20th and early 21st centuries-does bring crime, unruly drinking, public urination, unemployment, overcrowded dwellings, and property damage."

It may be surprising, then, to find agreement among several leading criminologists that immigration does not cause crime-and may even reduce it. None of them would argue that immigration is the most important factor everywhere, especially since the recent rise in Boston's murder rate comes as its foreign-born population continues to grow. But the increased flow of immigrants to major American cities nationwide, argues Robert J. Sampson, a Harvard sociologist and lead author of a major recent study on the topic, ''has been one of the more plausible explanations that we've seen for the decrease in the violence rate."

. . .

Skepticism about a link between increased crime and immigration isn't entirely new. Working in the 1920s and '30s, at the end of the country's last great wave of immigration, criminology pioneers Edwin Sutherland and Thorsten Sellin found that immigrants had lower crime rates than both native-born Americans and second-generation immigrants. It was American culture, Sutherland and Sellin concluded, that caused crime, and the less exposure to it one had the less likely one was to be a criminal.

Published earlier this year, the study led by Harvard's Sampson echoed these earlier surveys. Sampson and his colleagues followed a diverse group of nearly 3,000 Chicago youths from 1995 to 2002, and found that immigrant kids were less likely than peers of similar socioeconomic backgrounds to participate in everything from gang fights to arson to purse snatchings. Not only that, but even nonimmigrant kids who happened to live in immigrant neighborhoods were less likely than otherwise to be involved in violence.

Part of the explanation for this, Sampson says, is that immigrant families, while often poor, are more likely than other poor families to have stable, two-parent households, one factor widely understood to decrease the odds of violent activity.

But that didn't explain everything. In Sampson's study, simply being a first-generation immigrant, no matter what one's parents' marital status or one's education level, made one less likely to end up committing a violent crime. And while the immigrants in Sampson's sample were predominantly Latino, the trend also held for the African and Caribbean immigrants he followed.

Sampson and others can only hypothesize as to why. ''New immigrants," suggests John Hagan, a sociologist at Northwestern University, ''tend to be a self-selected group who are highly ambitious, energetic, innovative." Immigrants, it's been repeatedly found, are significantly more likely than their nonimmigrant neighbors to have jobs. Hagan suggests that they're also less likely to be interested in something as possibly ruinous as crime.

Ramiro Martinez, a sociologist at Florida International University, has come to similar conclusions by studying homicide rates among Latino and immigrant communities in Miami, El Paso, San Antonio, San Diego, Chicago, and other cities. In each, he has found immigrants heavily underrepresented-especially considering their socioeconomic status-among convicted murderers. Andrew Karmen of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice has found analogous results for New York state.

In fact, Martinez points out, some of America's best-known border towns have the country's lowest murder rates. ''San Diego, for example-a place that captures the public imagination with all this concern about losing the borders to Mexico-has one of the lowest homicide rates for any major American urban area in the United States." El Paso, another city seen as bearing the brunt of the swelling ranks of illegal immigrants, regularly ranks among the country's safest cities.

. . .

There are limits to the data in these studies. For one thing, they focus on violent crime rather than property crime, which is more prevalent. And little work has been done on immigration's effect on nonurban crime-perhaps understandably, since big cities both absorb most of the country's immigrants and experience most of its crime.

No studies, furthermore, have been able to determine whether illegal immigrants-who tend to loom particularly large in public fears-are as crime-averse as legal immigrants. On this front, though, criminologists have at least been able to make informed guesses. Sampson, for example, points out that 75 percent of the immigrants in his study listed themselves as noncitizens. While many of those may have been in the process of applying for citizenship, a good number, he suspects, were simply illegal. And Martinez claims that he's seen very few illegal immigrants in the prison populations, homicide reports, and detectives' assessments he's studied. ''They're laying low," he says, and committing a crime would only get them noticed.

Some, however, take issue with these findings-and not just anti-immigration activists. Wesley Skogan, a Northwestern University political scientist, has done detailed surveys of crime and quality of life throughout Chicago. Even when he controlled for poverty, he found an increase in the concentration of Spanish-speaking immigrants in a neighborhood increased ''crime, social disorder problems, and physical decay."

In part, Skogan argues, this is because Chicago's immigrants are largely young and male, and young males are invariably the most crime-prone segment of any population. In addition, he says, immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, drive up crime by serving as easy targets for what Skogan calls ''specialty gangs" who target illegals because ''they can't report crimes, and they're walking around with a lot of cash-they're called 'walking ATM machines."'

Skogan also points out that immigrant experiences vary widely, especially in the second and third generation. While Chicago's immigration is largely Mexican, ''if you're talking about New York, for example, it's a more complicated mix of people coming in."

Sampson readily admits that the immigrant effect weakens with each successive generation. Like Edwin Sutherland and Thorsten Sellin, Sampson finds that the children of immigrants are more crime-prone than their parents, the third generation more crime-prone still. Why that is, he admits, is ''really the $64,000 question, that's really at the forefront of the research."

What it suggests, though, is that the causes of crime lie less with immigrants than with the country that they, like generations of new arrivals before them, are busily assimilating themselves into.
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
Very long and well documented post. Could you please highlight where it says that the minimum wage keeps black teenagers unemployed? It just says that many think the minimum wage laws hurt those they are designed to help, then talks how hard it is to prove that.

Here's another article now that I've established some credibility for Sowell, since few here know who he is.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-11_15_05_TS.html

November 15, 2005
Ignoring Economics
By Thomas Sowell

Many people are blaming the riots in France on the high unemployment rate among young Muslim men living in the ghettoes around Paris and elsewhere. Some are blaming both the unemployment and the ghettoization on discrimination by the French.

Plausible as these explanations may sound, they ignore economics, among other things.

Let us go back a few generations in the United States. We need not speculate about racial discrimination because it was openly spelled out in laws in the Southern states, where most blacks lived, and was not unknown in the North.

Yet in the late 1940s, the unemployment rate among young black men was not only far lower than it is today but was not very different from unemployment rates among young whites the same ages. Every census from 1890 through 1930 showed labor force participation rates for blacks to be as high as, or higher than, labor force participation rates among whites.

Why are things so different today in the United States -- and so different among Muslim young men in France? That is where economics comes in.

People who are less in demand -- whether because of inexperience, lower skills, or race -- are just as employable at lower pay rates as people who are in high demand are at higher pay rates. That is why blacks were just as able to find jobs as whites were, prior to the decade of the 1930s and why a serious gap in unemployment between black teenagers and white teenagers opened up only after 1950.

Prior to the decade of the 1930s, the wages of inexperienced and unskilled labor were determined by supply and demand. There was no federal minimum wage law and labor unions did not usually organize inexperienced and unskilled workers. That is why such workers were able to find jobs, just like everyone else, even when these were black workers in an era of open discrimination.

The first federal minimum wage law, the Davis-Bacon Act of 1931, was passed in part explicitly to prevent black construction workers from "taking jobs" from white construction workers by working for lower wages. It was not meant to protect black workers from "exploitation" but to protect white workers from competition.

Even aside from a racial context, minimum wage laws in countries around the world protect higher-paid workers from the competition of lower paid workers.

Often the higher-paid workers are older, more experienced, more skilled or more unionized. But many goods and services can be produced with either many lower skilled workers or fewer higher skilled workers, as well as with more capital and less labor or vice-versa. Employers' choices depend on the relative costs.

The net economic effect of minimum wage laws is to make less skilled, less experienced, or otherwise less desired workers more expensive -- thereby pricing many of them out of jobs. Large disparities in unemployment rates between the young and the mature, the skilled and the unskilled, and between different racial groups have been common consequences of minimum wage laws.

That is their effect whether the particular minimum wage law applies to one sector of the economy like the Davis-Bacon Act, to the whole economy like the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 or to particular local communities like so-called "living wage" laws and policies today.

The full effect of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 was postponed by the wartime inflation of the 1940s, which raised wages above the level specified in the Act. Amendments to raise the minimum wage began in 1950 -- and so did the widening racial differential in unemployment, especially for young black men.

Where minimum wage rates are higher and accompanied by other worker benefits mandated by government to be paid by employers, as in France, unemployment rates are higher and differences in unemployment rates between the young and the mature, or between different racial or ethnic groups, are greater.

France's unemployment rate is roughly double that of the United States and people who are unemployed stay unemployed much longer in France. Unemployment rates among young Frenchmen are about 20 percent and among young Muslim men about 40 percent.

There is no free lunch, least of all for the disadvantaged.
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
It was American culture, Sutherland and Sellin concluded, that caused crime, and the less exposure to it one had the less likely one was to be a criminal.

There are limits to the data in these studies. For one thing, they focus on violent crime rather than property crime, which is more prevalent. And little work has been done on immigration's effect on nonurban crime-perhaps understandably, since big cities both absorb most of the country's immigrants and experience most of its crime.

Some, however, take issue with these findings-and not just anti-immigration activists. Wesley Skogan, a Northwestern University political scientist, has done detailed surveys of crime and quality of life throughout Chicago. Even when he controlled for poverty, he found an increase in the concentration of Spanish-speaking immigrants in a neighborhood increased ''crime, social disorder problems, and physical decay."

In part, Skogan argues, this is because Chicago's immigrants are largely young and male, and young males are invariably the most crime-prone segment of any population. In addition, he says, immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, drive up crime by serving as easy targets for what Skogan calls ''specialty gangs" who target illegals because ''they can't report crimes, and they're walking around with a lot of cash-they're called 'walking ATM machines."'

Sampson readily admits that the immigrant effect weakens with each successive generation. Like Edwin Sutherland and Thorsten Sellin, Sampson finds that the children of immigrants are more crime-prone than their parents, the third generation more crime-prone still. Why that is, he admits, is ''really the $64,000 question, that's really at the forefront of the research."

What it suggests, though, is that the causes of crime lie less with immigrants than with the country that they, like generations of new arrivals before them, are busily assimilating themselves into.

I read this article as saying that the employment & family structure were more responsible for the immigrants lower crime rates than anything else and that as they became more Americanized, their tendency to commit a crime became higher. NOT that they became more criminalized with each successive generation, but that as they adjusted to their new society, the key factors that differentiated them changed.
 

Smiling JOe

SoWal Expert
Nov 18, 2004
31,644
1,773
Let me get this straight, 6thGen. You are in favor of opening up all borders and allowing anyone to come and go as they please, yet you are against the public being allowed to walk on the beach? You don't seem to be on the same page with yourself on this one.
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
I read this article as saying that the employment & family structure were more responsible for the immigrants lower crime rates than anything else and that as they became more Americanized, their tendency to commit a crime became higher. NOT that they became more criminalized with each successive generation, but that as they adjusted to their new society, the key factors that differentiated them changed.

My point was that crime increases through generations, and we need to figure out why and address that.
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
Let me get this straight, 6thGen. You are in favor of opening up all borders and allowing anyone to come and go as they please, yet you are against the public being allowed to walk on the beach? You don't seem to be on the same page with yourself on this one.

I never said that the public should not be allowed to walk on the beach. I said that private property owners should be allowed to use their property as they wish, within legal bounds, and that the state should not forcefully take property. You said that they should give up the property or the state should sieze it without compensation if the property owners do not wish to just give up something so valuable.
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
Many people are blaming the riots in France on the high unemployment rate among young Muslim men living in the ghettoes around Paris and elsewhere. Some are blaming both the unemployment and the ghettoization on discrimination by the French.

France's unemployment rate is roughly double that of the United States and people who are unemployed stay unemployed much longer in France. Unemployment rates among young Frenchmen are about 20 percent and among young Muslim men about 40 percent.

Very informative article!

However, it stated that the reason black men were employed at the same rate was that they worked for LESS money. Once they had to be paid the same amount, discrimination became a key factor and then the disparity in employment rates was seen. These examples were BEFORE the civil rights movement and the passage of laws outlawing descrimination.

I believe part of the problem in France is that such descrimination is not illegal and with such high unemployment rates, they are choosing to employ their countrymen rather than immigrants. Steps that are being taken to preserve the French culture are being seen as racist and are creating more rage like that shown in the Paris riots.
 
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