Immigration Debate

[scooterbug44]

The fence and security issue is a racist non-starter as long as the Canadian border is wide open.

True, the US/Canada border is the longest unsecured border in the world, but Canadians are not comprising the majority of illegal immigrants to the US. 81% are from Mexico and other Latin American countries. I agree that securing the Mexican border while ignoring the Candian one is not a truly effective solution, but they would have to first enter Canada via a port or airport, severely limiting the number who would then be able to sneak across the border from the North.

I think we all agree a wall or fence is an ineffective and cost prohibitive method.

 

[6thGen]

True, the US/Canada border is the longest unsecured border in the world, but Canadians are not comprising the majority of illegal immigrants to the US. 81% are from Mexico and other Latin American countries. I agree that securing the Mexican border while ignoring the Candian one is not a truly effective solution, but they would have to first enter Canada via a port or airport, severely limiting the number who would then be able to sneak across the border from the North.

I think we all agree a wall or fence is an ineffective and cost prohibitive method.

My point is that the security issue is a non-starter, but we agree on the fence.

Mango,
What the hell is FTLOG? Other than than the money issue, I agree with your point. Any government agency is going to ask for about 3x what they actually need then spend every dime so they get it again the next year, so they I don't believe that throwing money at a government agency will solve the problem.

 

[scooterbug44]

FTLOG: For The Love Of God

I think the security issue is a very valid concern. What is the point of making everyone have passports to travel when terrorists can stroll across the border?

I don't have a problem with anyone coming in in search of a better life (that's how my gene pool got here), my concerns are security and the drain on our resources.

 

[Mango]

My point is that the security issue is a non-starter, but we agree on the fence.

Mango,
What the hell is FTLOG? Other than than the money issue, I agree with your point. Any government agency is going to ask for about 3x what they actually need then spend every dime so they get it again the next year, so they I don't believe that throwing money at a government agency will solve the problem.

No, what we need is an international scanning system similar to Hong Kong who scans 100% of containers through end scanners and the info is stored in computer databases for later review if necessary. It hasn't slowed anything down there. Right now we scan a small percentage of containers that enter the US.
But the Sabo amendment was shot down last year mainly by Bushco.
I mean who wants to tell their major campaign contributors they'll have to pay a small cargo fee. :roll:

 

[6thGen]

FTLOG: For The Love Of God

I think the security issue is a very valid concern. What is the point of making everyone have passports to travel when terrorists can stroll across the border?

I don't have a problem with anyone coming in in search of a better life (that's how my gene pool got here), my concerns are security and the drain on our resources.

Security may be a concern, but unless the talk radio crowd wants to build a fence on our northern border, the security topic is a distraction from their protectionist argument. As for draining resources, that's a valid point, but it should be made from the point that entitlement reform is needed for everyone on the government teat, not just for the newcomers. As a side note, my favorite economist opened one of his first books with this:

President Kennedy said, "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."... Neither half of that statement expresses a relation between the citizen and his government that is worthy of the ideals of free men in a free society.

 

[6thGen]

No, what we need is an international scanning system similar to Hong Kong who scans 100% of containers through end scanners and the info is stored in computer databases for later review if necessary. It hasn't slowed anything down there. Right now we scan a small percentage of containers that enter the US.
But the Sabo amendment was shot down last year mainly by Bushco.
I mean who wants to tell their major campaign contributors they'll have to pay a small cargo fee. :roll:

Um, ok, that sounds great. Sounds like a plan. But we are talking about immigration. I said I agree with you on the backpacker vs. the bomb in the port.

 

[Mango]

Um, ok, that sounds great. Sounds like a plan. But we are talking about immigration. I said I agree with you on the backpacker vs. the bomb in the port.

My point above if you had the whole thread was Bush raised this Immigration plan in 2000 and again in 2004 and it was shot down. Why all of a sudden was it raised again? To show concern for our national security? I think not. Go ahead and call me paranoid about conspiracy theories if you like, but makes me wonder who of his friends will benefit from this, although I do not think it has any chances of actually passing. Which leads me to believe it was pushed again to the floor now to detract us from criticism of the surge.

 

[6thGen]

My point above if you had the whole thread was Bush raised this Immigration plan in 2000 and again in 2004 and it was shot down. Why all of a sudden was it raised again? To show concern for our national security? I think not. Go ahead and call me paranoid about conspiracy theories if you like, but makes me wonder who of his friends will benefit from this, although I do not think it has any chances of actually passing. Which leads me to believe it was pushed again to the floor now to detract us from criticism of the surge.

Bush never fashioned himself as a wartime president. That is one reason why Rumsfeld, who had been a great politician, was SecDef (it's an interesting story how 41 was named VP, when Rummy was Reagan's choice). He has a hispanic sister-in-law, he used to be the governor of Texas, and he sees things in a moral light, so he has a history with immigration. As for which friends will benefit, that's where your hatred for Bush misses the point. He is an idealist (see the social security issue), he is an optimist when it comes to people (does Harriet freaking Miers ring a bell?), and he knows that this is one of his historic platforms that actually has a shot. It's not because it will make his pals a bunch of money.

Bush never raised it as a concern for our national security, that's his opponents, so I don't know where you are going there.

 

[30A Skunkape]

6th Gen, you might note that I never stated which border we should secure, rather, we need to secure our borders. Geography itself is our ally along the Canadian border as so much of it is just to the desolate side of BFE...thick stands of forest and a colder than all get out climate for much of the year helps things take care of themselves. I also put much more faith in the Canadian government's ability to sniff out terror plots while they are incubating. Our southern border is a whole other issue;the climate can be hot, but we know illegals still risk a run across the desert, and I have much less faith in Mexico's capacity to quell smoldering terror. Playing the race card is weak, frankly. I am not sure how many Canadians are slipping across the border to come work in the US, but I can tell you I personally know at least a few Canadian citizens who went to school in the US and now work in the US who live in constant fear of having to go back to Canada because their work papers will expire, and apparently getting them renewed is so straightforward they need to hire an immigration law attorney.

 

[6thGen]

6th Gen, you might note that I never stated which border we should secure, rather, we need to secure our borders. Geography itself is our ally along the Canadian border as so much of it is just to the desolate side of BFE...thick stands of forest and a colder than all get out climate for much of the year helps things take care of themselves. I also put much more faith in the Canadian government's ability to sniff out terror plots while they are incubating. Our southern border is a whole other issue;the climate can be hot, but we know illegals still risk a run across the desert, and I have much less faith in Mexico's capacity to quell smoldering terror. Playing the race card is weak, frankly. I am not sure how many Canadians are slipping across the border to come work in the US, but I can tell you I personally know at least a few Canadian citizens who went to school in the US and now work in the US who live in constant fear of having to go back to Canada because their work papers will expire, and apparently getting them renewed is so straightforward they need to hire an immigration law attorney.

So we should depend on other countries and count on enemies poor determination to secure our borders? The wall idea didn't really play out very well for the Ming dynasty, not sure why it would work for us. The race card is not weak, it has been the same anti-immigration argument for hundreds of years.