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Matt J

SWGB
May 9, 2007
24,862
9,670
I think the markets are taking care of this. It's not something you legislate, but you can support the roll over through things like education funding and by letting failed companies fail. :roll:

Lots of "jobs of the future", however they are not blue collar jobs, they are skilled labor like healthcare and technology and the like. Hence the need for reform in our education system. Come to think of it, GM is a lot like our education system, both need a major overhaul. The question is are we willing to bite the bullet and do something about it, or just prop up the old model and hope for the best. I don't have high hopes.

That's all great, but it's intellectual snobbery. If I read your post correctly America will be nothing but internet companies and hospitals by 2020? Say what you want, but we will still need vehicles, food, and basic goods. You can ship those jobs over seas all you want, but eventually you'll be screaming that it's a national security issue. How is sending all of our manufacturing jobs (and the money with them) any different than buying oil from a middle east company? Do you really think that China isn't going to get a little restless as their land and resources shrink?
 

30ashopper

SoWal Insider
Apr 30, 2008
6,845
3,471
59
Right here!
That's all great, but it's intellectual snobbery. If I read your post correctly America will be nothing but internet companies and hospitals by 2020? Say what you want, but we will still need vehicles, food, and basic goods. You can ship those jobs over seas all you want, but eventually you'll be screaming that it's a national security issue. How is sending all of our manufacturing jobs (and the money with them) any different than buying oil from a middle east company? Do you really think that China isn't going to get a little restless as their land and resources shrink?

No, that's not what I meant. This isn't a dooms day scenario here. American manufacturing output has increased dramatically over the years - we just don't use as much manual labor to produce the output. So I wouldn't worry about our ability to produce our own goods. I'm just saying that the number of people used in production has and will continue to decline. Those jobs are in turn being replaced by other sectors. That's a good thing.. other sectors provide better, safer work environments and benefits.


Manufacturing_Data1.jpg



The BLS publishes all the data you could ever want on labor trends. Here's forward looking employment data broken down by sectors.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ep/ind-occ.matrix/mlrtab1.txt

Here's a little excerpt on the subject from a noted economist at Yale -

Returning to the issue of how Chinese growth might affect workers in developed economies, it is important to recognise that vertical specialisation within product markets can also help insulate workers in developed countries from the low wages of workers in developing economies. Intuitively, the less substitutable goods of greater and less sophistication are, the weaker is the link between prices and wages and the more separated the workers in the two types of countries will be. Developed countries can move away from developing countries by climbing the quality ladder as well as by shifting the composition of their output.

Both of these forces appear to be at work. The widening price gap between Chinese and OECD varieties in some industries is consistent with quality upgrading: in reacting to China, firms in developed economies try to specialise in ever-more sophisticated versions of products to protect their sales. As a result, they drop their lowest price goods, raising their average price. Recent analyses of US manufacturing firms provide further evidence consistent with such a response. One study, for example, shows that even though US manufacturing firms are more likely to contract or fail as their industry?s exposure to imports from low-wage countries increases, this outcome is mitigated by the sophistication of the goods they produce within their industry. Firms that appear to be producing more sophisticated goods within industries have better outcomes. This study also suggests that firms move up as well as out in response to trade liberalisation by switching into industries that are more in line with US comparative advantage and that are therefore less exposed to low-wage country exports.

These behaviours provide intuition for why trade with developing countries will not lead to the elimination of manufacturing in the developed world, as some of the most extreme critics of globalisation contend. Even though increased trade with China may cause developed countries to abandon the production of their less-sophisticated goods, production of more-sophisticated goods, or the research and design services associated with them, is always waiting to take its place. Indeed, as is often pointed out, the creative destruction associated with these reallocations should be encouraged: allowing countries to produce according to their comparative advantage enhances the efficiency of production and encourages the availability of a wider variety of products at lower prices to consumers in all countries, thereby raising standards of living.

http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/599

Or to put it more simply, aside from some exceptions in electionics manufacturing, most of the junk we buy from China is just that - JUNK.
 

Mango

SoWal Insider
Apr 7, 2006
9,699
1,368
New York/ Santa Rosa Beach
The NJ pump law is an antiquated law that Gov. Corzine considered repealing, but he was met with much squawking when he tried. Apparently, people got used to not pumping their own gas in Jersey. The biggest squawkers were the elderly. Also, many business people liked it because they didn't go to meetings smelling like gas. Then there's the cleaning of windows, etc. Some people hate it because they do not like giving their credit cards to the attendants. But on the whole, most people like it in Jersey. My own MIL has never pumped gas in her life and when she drove she always looked for a station that had attendants.

Corzine discovered that the gas prices would be lowered by about 5-7 cents without attendants. Not enough to repeal it after residents raised hairy hail over it. One of the reasons the gas tax is so low in Jersey are the revenues raised by tolls. You can't go very far in Jersey without paying one.

Although, I do not believe no pumping should be mandated, it is a smart business move for a station owner to have attendants. Last time I was in Sowal while I was paying for my pork rinds, someone sped off with $50 in gas. The attendant told me this happens daily. Why they don't bother to fix the pumps to pay first or have an attendant behooves me.
 
No, that's not what I meant. This isn't a dooms day scenario here. American manufacturing output has increased dramatically over the years - we just don't use as much manual labor to produce the output. So I wouldn't worry about our ability to produce our own goods. I'm just saying that the number of people used in production has and will continue to decline. Those jobs are in turn being replaced by other sectors. That's a good thing.. other sectors provide better, safer work environments and benefits.


Manufacturing_Data1.jpg



The BLS publishes all the data you could ever want on labor trends. Here's forward looking employment data broken down by sectors.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ep/ind-occ.matrix/mlrtab1.txt

Here's a little excerpt on the subject from a noted economist at Yale -



http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/599

Or to put it more simply, aside from some exceptions in electionics manufacturing, most of the junk we buy from China is just that - JUNK.

Remember that most everything quoted above is talking about the shift in employment in percentages of total employment. I am reading that to say that production efficiencies impress evaporation on the total number of employment posts.

Can you try and impute the Yale Economists assessment on the total employment opportunities available within America?
 
The NJ pump law is an antiquated law that Gov. Corzine considered repealing, but he was met with much squawking when he tried. Apparently, people got used to not pumping their own gas in Jersey. The biggest squawkers were the elderly. Also, many business people liked it because they didn't go to meetings smelling like gas. Then there's the cleaning of windows, etc. Some people hate it because they do not like giving their credit cards to the attendants. But on the whole, most people like it in Jersey. My own MIL has never pumped gas in her life and when she drove she always looked for a station that had attendants.

Corzine discovered that the gas prices would be lowered by about 5-7 cents without attendants. Not enough to repeal it after residents raised hairy hail over it. One of the reasons the gas tax is so low in Jersey are the revenues raised by tolls. You can't go very far in Jersey without paying one.

Although, I do not believe no pumping should be mandated, it is a smart business move for a station owner to have attendants. Last time I was in Sowal while I was paying for my pork rinds, someone sped off with $50 in gas. The attendant told me this happens daily. Why they don't bother to fix the pumps to pay first or have an attendant behooves me.

When I worked a gas station in NJ I was required by my station owner to wash every single windshield that came through. We also offered to check oil, fill windshield wiper fluid, check tire pressure, brake fluid, etc. Every once in a while we probably really saved our customer some heartache over an unforseen maintenance condition.

It provided me with some worthy employment when times were hard.
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
If a gas station had an attached garage w/ mechanics maybe - these days the typical gas/convenience model is typically staffed w/ lunkheads who can't figure out the cash register most of the time - not who you want messing w/ your brake fluid!

Growing up, the only gas station that offered full service was also the (non-chain) one w/ the full service garage and tow truck. Gas was a service they offered, not their main business - they made their money on repairs, not sundries.

Someone who knows how to check your tires, brakes, oil etc. is not going to work for the wage offered at a gas station - they will work as a mechanic for higher pay.
 

Mango

SoWal Insider
Apr 7, 2006
9,699
1,368
New York/ Santa Rosa Beach
If a gas station had an attached garage w/ mechanics maybe - these days the typical gas/convenience model is typically staffed w/ lunkheads who can't figure out the cash register most of the time - not who you want messing w/ your brake fluid!

Growing up, the only gas station that offered full service was also the (non-chain) one w/ the full service garage and tow truck. Gas was a service they offered, not their main business - they made their money on repairs, not sundries.

Someone who knows how to check your tires, brakes, oil etc. is not going to work for the wage offered at a gas station - they will work as a mechanic for higher pay.

I can't say I have had this experience. I go and get my oil changed locally and a young high school girl, who looks like Marisa Tomei, does the work. The men who come in balked initially, but then allow her a second time. She never spilled the oil and I have never had a problem. My husband learned lots about car mechanics while he was a teenager by pumping gas, changing fluids, and the like at a mechanics shop. He does all his own basic work now and it saves us bundles. He does brakes, tire changes, tune ups, you name it. The more invasive work we delegate.

But many, including men, have no idea how to check their cars. It's dangerous riding around without windshield wiper fluid and low tire pressure. Why go to a full service mechanic for such basic services? They can't be bothered with that and they will charge most likely to do it.

I still don't think it should mandated to have full service pumps unless it can be proven that lack of brake or windshield fluid is causing a public safety hazard via traffic accidents. I don't think that is the case, The original Jersey law was enacted because they thought pumping gas was hazardous because they thought people wouldn't do it right and dribble it on their cars and on the ground. Like I said, I think it is a smart move for someone who owns a station to have.
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
A place like that I would have no problem w/ checking my brakes or pumping my gas etc - I consider that a "garage" and I assume (and hope) Marisa is making more per hour than than the person at the Tom Thumb.

Most gas stations are not like that - which is why I have a problem with making it a law that I can't pump my own gas.
 

Winnie

Beach Fanatic
Jul 22, 2008
695
213
Santa Rosa Beach
But many, including men, have no idea how to check their cars. It's dangerous riding around without windshield wiper fluid and low tire pressure. Why go to a full service mechanic for such basic services? They can't be bothered with that and they will charge most likely to do it.

It is simple to check your own oil, coolant, tranny and wiper fluids, and tire air pressure. Most car maintenance manuals even tell you how often you should. If necessary, it could be included in the test to get a driving license.
 

Smiling JOe

SoWal Expert
Nov 18, 2004
31,644
1,773
Immediately one would assume gas is more expensive to the consumer. What you will find is that this may not be accurate. New Jersey and Oregon are the only States that mandate the rule. Their price at the pump is less than their peers.

Have you ever bought gas in NJ? I have, and fully disagree that full-service gas doesn't cost more. The cost of the employee wages will be absorbed in things you buy at that station.

It seems rather silly to pay someone to do something that you can just as easily do, without having to wait on anyone, especially considering that you are not able to do anything more important with your time, while trapped at the gas station. As for safety, I haven't seen or heard of one accident relating to people filling their autos with gas at gas stations.
 
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