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LuciferSam

Banned
Apr 26, 2008
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As I cleared up above, it's not the science that I'm worried about, it is its application. If we are not to look to clergy and religious leaders to answer complicated moral and ethical questions, where should we look?

We should look to philosophers with a scientific background and scientists with a background in philosophy. If that includes some members of the clergy than so be it. We need people who can express themselves honestly and not preach to their own choir.
 

dgsevier

Beach Fanatic
There actually has been privately-funded research on embryonic stem cells in this country.

Thanks for pointing this part out. It has been overlooked until now in this thread.

On an related aspect. Universities and other funded research labs have mandatory Institutional Review Boards (IRBs) that strictly oversee all human and other animal research. It is an insanely meticulous process and taken very seriously for both ethical and financial reasons. For those of you out there who are like me and have conducted primary research then you know that the hoops that you must jump through to do human (even non-invasive) research can be nearly overwhelming.

While some of us may disagree on the types of research that should be conducted, I can tell you first-hand that the oversight of any research conducted at an entity that receives federal funding is stringent and serious. That standard holds for whether the research is federally funded on not.
 

30ashopper

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Apr 30, 2008
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Can you give a couple of examples of this?

From my understanding of the ban, it restricted federally funded research to a limited set of "existing lines" which limited the number of research projects involved. Maybe my understanding of what it did is off, feel free to correct me if it is.

Bush's ban limited federally funded research to embryonic stem-cell lines that scientists said had been compromised or contaminated. As states and private foundations moved ahead with the research using other sources of funding, thousands of cell lines were developed that reflect the country's genetic diversity and may reveal previously unknown insights into human cell development, Lemischka said. "When you have that large number of lines available, it makes no sense to limit research to those few lines available before 2001," Lemischka told ScientificAmerican.com.

"In the short term, a lot of people that were previously not planning to submit grant proposals [to NIH for federal funds] will probably be doing so," he said, adding that the new research opportunities complement the $7.4 billion in the stimulus package for NIH grants. "Clearly, having science policy be dictated in large part by the best scientific evidence and rationale is a very healthy thing. It's fair to say the barriers are largely removed into developing insights into how diseases occur using embryonic stem cell research and that [could lead] to better diagnostics, better pharmaceutical drugs and how humans develop."

Obama ends embryonic stem cell research ban: Scientific American Blog
 

Lynnie

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Apr 18, 2007
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Thanks for pointing this part out. It has been overlooked until now in this thread.

On an related aspect. Universities and other funded research labs have mandatory Institutional Review Boards (IRBs) that strictly oversee all human and other animal research. It is an insanely meticulous process and taken very seriously for both ethical and financial reasons. For those of you out there who are like me and have conducted primary research then you know that the hoops that you must jump through to do human (even non-invasive) research can be nearly overwhelming.

While some of us may disagree on the types of research that should be conducted, I can tell you first-hand that the oversight of any research conducted at an entity that receives federal funding is stringent and serious. That standard holds for whether the research is federally funded on not.


And, stem cell research has mostly been funded by private dollars. In the past Bush-era, it was limited to $250K/yr. (if I remember correctly). That amount is gone in a millisecond. I think the private sector will step this up as well.



I've copied this from AP writer: The president said his administration would work aggressively to make up for the ground he said was lost due to Bush's decision, though it can't be known how much more federal money will be spent on the research until grants are applied for and issued.


Can private research be more efficient? This from wikipedia, which can be edited by just about anyone (but, I think is a pretty good source):

[edit] Government-funded research allows basic science

Government-funded research into such matters as the nature of quantum mechanics or the existence of water on Mars
Since the value of such knowledge is often difficult or impossible to judge, and no commercial benefit (at least on any relevant time horizon) can be derived, a frequent apparently common-sense position is that therefore such knowledge should not be pursued at public expense. However, even in the most theoretical of fields, it is often difficult to determine in advance where research may lead.
For example, decades of research into quantum mechanics have made possible work on quantum computing, which is now expected to be an even greater leap forward in computing technology than the development of the microchip, which in some areas is beginning to reach the limits of what is physically possible with this technology. It remains to be seen whether the inherent technical difficulties in quantum computing actually allow for a widespread application of this technology.

[edit] Privately-funded research is profit oriented

A characteristic of privately funded research is that it is almost always profit-oriented. In other words, private corporations tend to devote a relatively small investment to fund research into a field that shows little prospect of being profitable in the near future, even if such research could lead to highly beneficial results (for example, drug companies may not want to invest in finding the cure for a disease if most of the people affected by that disease are too poor to be able to afford such a cure). Some protest that cures and treatments for rare diseases are not pursued due to the lack of profit potential. Supporters of commercially funded research make a utilitarian argument, saying that the fact that profit potential directs investment in treatment for diseases that afflict the many individuals rather than few individuals is a good thing, since it results in alleviating the greater amount of human suffering.

[edit] Privately-funded research is more efficient - The Human Genome Project

An often-quoted example used to illustrate the difference in efficiency between government-funded and privately funded research projects is the quest of mapping the human genome. The U.S. government was funding such a mission, called the Human Genome Project, while at the same time the quest was being pursued separately with private venture capital by Celera Genomics.
Celera Genomics used a newer, albeit riskier technique and proceeded at a faster pace and at a fraction of the cost of the tax-funded project (approximately $3 billion of taxpayer dollars versus about $300 million of private funding). Some HGP researchers claimed Celera's method of genome sequencing "would not work," however that project eventually adopted some of Celera's methods.
However, some researchers in the field of genomics have claimed that this comparison is unjust. Much of the funding provided for the HGP served the development of new technologies, rather than the sequencing of the human genome itself. Since Celera was a late-comer the company could already take advantage of the experience gained by the HGP. Though Celera's sequencing strategy allowed the sequencing of the majority of the human genome with a lot higher efficacy, the strategy used by the HGP allowed the sequencing of a higher percentage of the genome.
 

traderx

Beach Fanatic
Mar 25, 2008
2,133
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Proof is in the Pudding

The pudding in this case is patents. Thus screams the headline at siliconfenbusiness.com:

Private investment in stem cell research stalled;
patent applications in China soar: Marks & Clerk

From the story:

Investment in stem cell technology is growing, but private investment has been affected by increasing controversy and by legal and regulatory barriers, according to a report co-authored in the Cambridge office of Marks & Clerk, the patent and trade mark attorneys.

The Biotechnology Report 2006 says that in the past year there has been a marked shift in the pattern of patent filings in the area of stem cell research, with 24% of patents held by the top 20 organisations belonging to just three academic and government organisations.

It also found that the number of stem cell priority patent filings in China equalled those for the whole of Europe between 2003 and 2005.

The story says this about China:

Dr Williams said that stem cell research in China has exploded in the last three years, clearly seen in both filings originating in China (but filed elsewhere) and those filed within the country. This is result of a benign regulatory environment and the significant capital that has been invested in China.

Finally, nine paragraphs into the story, this bit of news:

Nonetheless, the data confirmed the US has by far the largest number of priority filings in stem cell research. It accounted for 51% of all applications filed between 2000 and 2005, almost twice as many as China, Australia and Japan combined ? which together accounted for 28%.

The US had over half of all stem cell research patent filings and accomplished this without federal money.

On a lighter note :blink:, in a year our budget deficit will be $2 trillion; our debt will approach $13 trillion. If you support federal funding for stem cell research, when do you want our government to stop deficit spending? Would you make cuts to offset this spending? If so, in what areas?
 

30ashopper

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Apr 30, 2008
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The pudding in this case is patents. Thus screams the headline at siliconfenbusiness.com:

..

The US had over half of all stem cell research patent filings and accomplished this without federal money.

I"ve had this argument before, and it's hard to win because basic research rarely results in major breakthroughs but does contribute signifigantly to a foundation of work that leads to discovery.

On a lighter note :blink:, in a year our budget deficit will be $2 trillion; our debt will approach $13 trillion. If you support federal funding for stem cell research, when do you want our government to stop deficit spending? Would you make cuts to offset this spending? If so, in what areas?

Grab an axe, or two, or ten -

Obama?€™s 2010 Federal Budget Explained in Plain English | OnlineForexTrading.com
 

traderx

Beach Fanatic
Mar 25, 2008
2,133
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I"ve had this argument before, and it's hard to win because basic research rarely results in major breakthroughs but does contribute signifigantly to a foundation of work that leads to discovery.

Grab an axe, or two, or ten -

Obama’s 2010 Federal Budget Explained in Plain English | OnlineForexTrading.com

But basic research in the US accounts for more than half the total patents worldwide and we are competing against large governments like China. I posted that because so many believe the US has fallen behind in research and that we live in the Dark Ages only because Bush did not fund research with public money.

So, if Obama sends you a $1,000 tax bill to fund the research, you will gleefully pay it?
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
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If federal funding is so incredibly limited, as has been argued, why is collaboration so vital? Yes, there has been some private funding, but not a commitment like we see when something shows the enormous promise ESC are alleged to have. The large pharmaceutical companies have steered clear of ESC research. Beyond the ethical argument there is an efficiency argument. Entrepreneurs' and philanthropists' funds are better spent on research and typically better at identifying winners, without the need of spending millions on lobbying. From Cato:

Of the 186 Nobel winners in Medicine since 1901, 99 did their prize-winning research with the support of U.S. research institutions. Of those, only five did their work at NIH and fewer than one-third did their work while affiliated with public institutions. The other two-thirds were affiliated with private institutions and were primarily supported through private funds.

For a good example look at in vitro fertilization research. Despite a complete lack of federal funding, the US has the largest IVF industry in the world. Human IVF is a $3 billion a year industry, human reproductive technologies as a whole is a $6.5 billion a year industry, and the total assisted reproduction industry, including animal husbandry, is close to a $16 billion a year industry.

Bush's limited ESC funding did not force the US into the dark ages, nor would it have.
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
We should look to philosophers with a scientific background and scientists with a background in philosophy. If that includes some members of the clergy than so be it. We need people who can express themselves honestly and not preach to their own choir.

So, in ethical discussions, we should look to philosophy majors before we look to clergy? Have you ever spent time with philosophy professors? While they may be preaching to their own choir, they aren't preaching the story of the Easter. We look to them to look to Scripture to answer tough ethical questions. And no, I'm not talking about Olsteen, Falwell, etc. I'm talking about folks with PhDs from Yale, Vanderbilt, Mercer, etc.
 

30ashopper

SoWal Insider
Apr 30, 2008
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But basic research in the US accounts for more than half the total patents worldwide and we are competing against large governments like China. I posted that because so many believe the US has fallen behind in research and that we live in the Dark Ages only because Bush did not fund research with public money.

I was talking about federally funded basic research.

So, if Obama sends you a $1,000 tax bill to fund the research, you will gleefully pay it?

Yes, but it's not going to be that big a bill.

NIH Research Portfolio Online Reporting Tool (RePORT)

If federal funding is so incredibly limited, as has been argued, why is collaboration so vital? Yes, there has been some private funding, but not a commitment like we see when something shows the enormous promise ESC are alleged to have. The large pharmaceutical companies have steered clear of ESC research. Beyond the ethical argument there is an efficiency argument. Entrepreneurs' and philanthropists' funds are better spent on research and typically better at identifying winners, without the need of spending millions on lobbying.

It's not limited in general, we’re only talking about research limitations in a very discreet area of research. That area also happens to hold a lot of promise. Those road blocks (however small they were) have now been cleared.

As far as applying capitalism to science - the great body of scientific research that takes place has no "winner" - it is basic research that forms the foundation of our understanding. Eliminating this work negatively impacts private research which relies on it.

Let’s assume we do it your way and cut off funding to say 50,000 researchers working in labs doing research across the country in all our major universities. Those folks all find themselves out of work - some find work in private labs doing "narrow" research (research with very specific goals), some will move to other countries where funding is available, others end up working at McDonalds or your local Starbucks. Very few will find additional funding through private philanthropy funds, as those fund are already allocated to existing research. Do you think your plan will have a positive or negative impact on advances in science made in our country?

Also, if you're looking for a second opinion, consider asking someone you trust in the medical industry this question. A family doctor for example - see what they have to say.
 
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