Wasn't that Hurricane Elena in 1975? I think it was a cat 1 storm also. The EOC study on tidal surge use to say that south Walton would be underwater with a cat 3 surge. In fact water would be almost to Freeport.
Public vs Private Beach
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Wasn't that Hurricane Elena in 1975? I think it was a cat 1 storm also. The EOC study on tidal surge use to say that south Walton would be underwater with a cat 3 surge. In fact water would be almost to Freeport.
Are you insured by Citizen's? If you are, then you are subsidized by public funds. Now your private property is yours, but we all help you keep it. Dissolving Citizen's would affect the majority of property owners (and drivers, and boat owners, and renters, and everyone else who pays that line item on their insurance policy for Citizen's) positively in lower premiums. It just makes sense that anyone who opposes beach restoration with public funds would also oppose subsidizing hazard insurance with public funds.
The people in NOLA who got FEMA money, got that money to help them survive - to buy groceries, and pay rent in the apartments they had to move to when their homes were destroyed. They didn't get FEMA money to replace sand in front of their homes to make the beach just as wide as it was before Katrina - a beach that they can then call private and throw people off of.
I think it is silly to say that one beachfront property owner can do whatever they want to "their" beach, and to assume that there is no effect on their neighbor, or to the public beaches which are close by. If you have a private beach walkover that rips away and destroys public beach dunes, you may need to pay an impact fee. If you armor your beach, and that causes erosion at a public beach to the east or west, you may need to pay an impact fee. To treat the beach as though it can be divided into 100-foot chunks which are completely independent of one another is laughable.
The county obviously thinks that if you put your seawall on public property, you owe the county $500 a year (which is quite a bargain). Maybe they have sent you a bill for beach clean up if you had a private walkover that ended up at topsail.
BMBV, are you privately or self-insured?
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I don't know what happened with Elena, back in '75. The storm I've heard about was back around the 19Teens. Storm surge maps for WalCo are available online with the GIS, and they don't concur with the old EOC study. If you haven't seen the storm surge maps, they are very interesting, though may be scary to some people. Fortunately, many areas of development don't look too bad, but there are some areas which would make me nervous.
I will take a look. I remember one meeting where the State had told us that the county was going to have to declare any area negatively impacted by a Cat 1 storm as non-buildable around 1996 or so. The information we had would have made all of that land around Paradise by the Sea off limits as well as just about everything around Rosemary and Alys. One south Walton commissioner came and looked over what we had come up with, needless to say, that was a State mandate that was put in a drawer and ignored.
On another note, since traffic was backed up on 331 North of DeFuniak to Walton Road for over 2 hours today, I imagine this private vs public beach thing is going to get a workout next week. Awfully busy this early in the season.
Interestingly, BMB, the main area of recent problems of private vs public beach, has looked pitifully slow compared to other areas to the east, from Grayton to Rosemary.
First of all, there is one quote in your post that tells me you don't have a clue with what you're talking about:
"They didn't get FEMA money to replace sand in front of their homes to make the beach just as wide as it was before Katrina - a beach that they can then call private and throw people off of. "
Where in the hell did you come up with that? Your inference that FEMA or any other public or government agency paid for our sand hauled in after Ivan and after Dennis is utterly and completely false. The money came directly out of our pockets.
Next topic:
Yes, we have Citizens....for wind coverage like the majority of Florida property owners. Wind is no different on the gulf than it is, let's say, 1/4 mile off the gulf. A Cat 4 will damage the majority of us. So, your bringing up Citizens has NOTHING to do with anything on this thread.
Now regarding my SUPPOSED opposition of beach restoration with public funds:
I recognize there are areas in Florida that have absolutely no choice but to renourish the beaches. I can even get along with the ECL concept. BUT here's my problem... How, when and who decides that a beach needs nourishment?
Taking a look at BMB this morning, it sure seems to me that the beach is looking pretty darn good.
So, in my book of logical reasoning, expending between 50 and 100 million dollars has to be looked at with dubious tinted sunglasses. In simple language, if the beach looks pretty good today, why would "we" spend all that money for beach nourishment? For preemptive reasons? I doubt it. The only reason, in my honest opinion, would be to effectively make those beaches public which would then set Walton County on the same (development) course as Destin and Panama City. I personally don't think that's desirable (unless you're a developer or a commissioner with similar motivations).
Regarding your repeated comments about damage to dunes from floating walkovers:
I gave you an honest observation based on hurricane Dennis videos. You ignore that. Then BeachSiO2 basically confirms the fact that it is the water (surge and waves) that does the real damage. You are apparently set in your views.
You mention seawalls on a public beach as well as the $500 "leases". This has nothing to do with anyone that I know of in Blue Mountain Beach including my property.
BH, you are all over the place...debris causing more destruction than water, Citizens, FEMA, seawalls, leases, beach nourishment, publc/private beaches...
My sense is that you just don't think beaches can be private property. And you will try to "shotgun" your way to try to back your position.
If you were to focus on your REAL concern, maybe we could have a reasonable dialog.
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Beach sio2 and i were having a very civil and informative discussion. Some people never knew about the Pleistocine mainland info. We respect each others opinions.
You have Citizens Insurance so every other insurance policy in Florida pays a line item to supplement your premium so that it is affordable to you and the system stays solvent. Did you get a quote from your former Insurer? How much money have your fellow Floridians saved you? And no, most of us do NOT have Citizens. Come on bmbvagrant get off the Government insurance and pay your own way.
Do you have one of those large wooden walkovers at your place? did you have to replace it twice since the storms of 2004/2005? If yes, when it came apart did all the debris stay on your property? Did you then do all of the clean up debris removal on you own, or did your fellow sowallers and tourist through bed taxes help foot the bill? bmb vagrant a little impact fee check from you to the tdc for the clean up would be a great gesture on your part to show you are willing to do your part. We will even overlook the "minimal" damage it may have caused to other areas. If none of this happened at your place then Bravo.
Is your place old enough to still be using a septic tank? If you do, if it washes out in the next storm like the ones at Gulf Place did last storm will you be doing the environmental clean up on your own or will your fellow sowallers be sharing those expenses? If you have a septic do the right thing, pay the impact fee to hook up to sewer. If you have never had a septic or already hooked up to sewer then BRAVO.
I'll let you answer and address these items and there is so much more to discuss. Looking forward to it bmbvagrant.
Can we agree on 1 point to start? No tax $$$ for beach restoration!
You have Citizens Insurance so every other insurance policy in Florida pays a line item to supplement your premium so that it is affordable to you and the system stays solvent. Did you get a quote from your former Insurer? How much money have your fellow Floridians saved you? And no, most of us do NOT have Citizens. Come on bmbvagrant get off the Government insurance and pay your own way.
Do you have one of those large wooden walkovers at your place? did you have to replace it twice since the storms of 2004/2005? If yes, when it came apart did all the debris stay on your property? Did you then do all of the clean up debris removal on you own, or did your fellow sowallers and tourist through bed taxes help foot the bill? bmb vagrant a little impact fee check from you to the tdc for the clean up would be a great gesture on your part to show you are willing to do your part. We will even overlook the "minimal" damage it may have caused to other areas. If none of this happened at your place then Bravo.
Is your place old enough to still be using a septic tank? If you do, if it washes out in the next storm like the ones at Gulf Place did last storm will you be doing the environmental clean up on your own or will your fellow sowallers be sharing those expenses? If you have a septic do the right thing, pay the impact fee to hook up to sewer. If you have never had a septic or already hooked up to sewer then BRAVO.
I'll let you answer and address these items and there is so much more to discuss. Looking forward to it bmbvagrant.
Can we agree on 1 point to start? No tax $$$ for beach restoration!
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I am going to try and hit as many scientific pts as I can so let me know if I miss something. BMBV I hope you don't mind if I tangent the thread just a bit more. 
1. You are right about Opal and I have those pictures somewhere, but I was discussing overwash in regards to barrier island migration. One common argument about Walton Cty is that it is a barrier island that is migrating northward. For this to occur, there would have to be overwash from the Gulf into the bay, like Okaloosa Island. My point was that some sand is moved landward of the dunes in limited areas, primarily low-lying like Coastal Dune lakes but not in areas where we have the substantial Pleistocene dunes.
2. Is it really that hard. ;-) Then how do we explain the uniqueness of coastal dune lakes only in the US and a few other areas. Our coastal area is that unique. That being said, here is the link to the FDEP long range beach management plan that shows the different geologic zones.
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/beaches/publications/gen-pub.htm#Strategic_Management_Plan
The study found that there was a benefit to the dunes as there was more sand there after the scraping than before, and no significant difference to the beach. The majority of scraping was after Ivan and before TS Arlene, not after Katrina. The purpose of the scraping was to create emergency protective low dunes that would protect the toe of the remaining dune features from a storm around the size of T.S. Arlene. If you noticed after Arlene, the scraped berm was eroded in areas but I don't know of any area where the post Ivan dune was eroded until Hurricane Dennis. So it performed as expected.
I can't say I would agree with this. The water that they likely saw was from the bay not from the Gulf.
In a true direct hit from a Cat 3 that is moving onshore slowly, the most at risk areas in Sowal from storm surge are not the properties south of hwy 98, but the areas north of 98 due to the fact that are dunes are high and the land is lower north of 98 than south of 98, except around the dune lakes but even there the flooding would be very centralized like it was in Dune Allen with Opal. Yes, the areas south of Freeport would be in trouble.
I am not sure this is accurate as the most at risk areas along the gulf-front from a storm surge inundation perspective would be near the Coastal Dune Lakes not in Seacrest as they have fairly high dunes. As a matter of fact from a storm erosion perspective only, I would say the safest property in all of Sowal is the condo, Tranquility by the Sea, which is located just to the east of Alys beach. The building would likely collapse before the dune in front of it would.
1. You are right about Opal and I have those pictures somewhere, but I was discussing overwash in regards to barrier island migration. One common argument about Walton Cty is that it is a barrier island that is migrating northward. For this to occur, there would have to be overwash from the Gulf into the bay, like Okaloosa Island. My point was that some sand is moved landward of the dunes in limited areas, primarily low-lying like Coastal Dune lakes but not in areas where we have the substantial Pleistocene dunes.
2. Is it really that hard. ;-) Then how do we explain the uniqueness of coastal dune lakes only in the US and a few other areas. Our coastal area is that unique. That being said, here is the link to the FDEP long range beach management plan that shows the different geologic zones.
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/beaches/publications/gen-pub.htm#Strategic_Management_Plan
The study found that there was a benefit to the dunes as there was more sand there after the scraping than before, and no significant difference to the beach. The majority of scraping was after Ivan and before TS Arlene, not after Katrina. The purpose of the scraping was to create emergency protective low dunes that would protect the toe of the remaining dune features from a storm around the size of T.S. Arlene. If you noticed after Arlene, the scraped berm was eroded in areas but I don't know of any area where the post Ivan dune was eroded until Hurricane Dennis. So it performed as expected.
I can't say I would agree with this. The water that they likely saw was from the bay not from the Gulf.
In a true direct hit from a Cat 3 that is moving onshore slowly, the most at risk areas in Sowal from storm surge are not the properties south of hwy 98, but the areas north of 98 due to the fact that are dunes are high and the land is lower north of 98 than south of 98, except around the dune lakes but even there the flooding would be very centralized like it was in Dune Allen with Opal. Yes, the areas south of Freeport would be in trouble.
I am not sure this is accurate as the most at risk areas along the gulf-front from a storm surge inundation perspective would be near the Coastal Dune Lakes not in Seacrest as they have fairly high dunes. As a matter of fact from a storm erosion perspective only, I would say the safest property in all of Sowal is the condo, Tranquility by the Sea, which is located just to the east of Alys beach. The building would likely collapse before the dune in front of it would.
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great stuff once again Bsio2...in regards to Blue Mountain Beach. The beach(from redfish to 83) now goes under water to the toe of the dune with almost any low pressure in the nearby gulf and a light wind generated push. Do they have any other methods of defense other than armoring up?
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Hopefully no one is trying to build seaward of the CCCL as that is bad news anyway, but I would imagine that most (not all) of the older properties in BMB would meet the eligibility and vulnerability conditions and be granted permits by FDEP. The newer properties will have problems being eligible as they were built after the establishment of the CCCL and have incorporated most of the best management practices into their design.
On another note, with the recent changes to the beach and dune systems, the FDEP is re-analyzing the current CCCL in all panhandle counties except Bay. This will likely result in moving the CCCL even more landward. Keep in mind that is a line of jurisdiction, not prohibition so there could still be houses seaward of that line permitted if they meet certain conditions. That being said, I would be building as far landward as I could on my property in any case and put my parking under my house.
This best option for protecting property that is already developed and not at immediate risk for a storm is to construct and MAINTAIN a healthy dune. In some cases where the house is teetering on the edge or is within a few feet of the edge of a bluff, this is not likely as we saw 30+ cubic yards of sand lost in Sowal with Hurricanes Ivan and Dennis. If I was having this concern, I would contact a QUALIFIED COASTAL engineer to give me a site analysis. Civil engineers are good at what they do, but they are really not versed in the nuances of coastal processes.
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