SB6 Punishment of Teachers Bill Passed in the Middle of the NIght

[Susan Horn]

I think some major changes are needed in our school systems.

The only issue I have with this is that teacher pay/employment is based on student performance on these tests.

And teachers complaining it is "unfair" because they can't control all of the other factors in student's lives really rubs me the wrong way. That is nothing new and you get the kids for a significant portion of their awake hours.

I do think teachers need more authority and disciplinary control in the schools and that we must make sure the kids are fed and have the necessary supplies, but beyond that, it's time for the teachers to stop whining and step up.

I know it's not an easy job, and this may not be the right solution, but when you aren't getting results, changes happen.

I'm sorry but when the teachers don't have good leadership at the school and district level, and/or don't have good support from parents, it's ridiculous to put all the responsiblity on them. I have taught insituations where there was a 50% or greater changeover in student population from one year to the next because of transient populations, and it's unreasonable to expect tecahers to fix that kind of instability for a classroo full of kids.

I think the local leadership needs some incentives -- principals, school boards, etc. Who is holding them accountable?

Okay I haven't yet read the posted info but will this weekend (thanks very much GW, Rapunzel)

 

[scooterbug44]

Read what I wrote - I want to give teachers more disciplinary control over their classrooms and make sure every kid has the food and supplies to learn.

Those address most of the major complaints I hear from teachers - kids unable to focus, lack of proper materials, no discipline, and being undermined by parents.

Then it's time for the teachers to step up and hopefully see an increase in both their pay and their student's performance.

If teachers aren't responsible for their students' performance, who exactly is?

 

[beachmouse]

I'm sorry but when the teachers don't have good leadership at the school and district level, and/or don't have good support from parents, it's ridiculous to put all the responsiblity on them. I have taught insituations where there was a 50% or greater changeover in student population from one year to the next because of transient populations, and it's unreasonable to expect tecahers to fix that kind of instability for a classroo full of kids.

Only 50% turnover in the classroom? You had it easy compared to some. There are urban elementary schools where it's not too odd to see 90% turnover in a classroom over a class year.

In some odd way, we're redefining teachers as comissioned salespeople, and the kind of people drawn to teaching are there in part because they want more security than you get from comissioned sales. Seriously 75% of the teachers I know that are retirement-elgible are so out of here if the bill becomes law.

After all, what we want to do is drive the experienced teachers who actually have a track record of, I dunno, being good at their jobs and replace them with a group of new teachers that has something like a 40% recidivism rate in the first five years for the profession.

On the bright side, it makes it easier for the state to balance the education budget if you're hiring newbie teachers instead of keeping the expensive experienced teachers around.

 

[wrobert]

As these things so often go in Tallahassee, the House version of SB6 passed in the middle of the night last night.

I was surprised not to see anything on SB6 on the board, because this wildly unpopular bill was supported for our two Yes Men -- Sen. Don Gaetz and Rep. Marti Coley both voted yes.

For background on the bill, the fabulous Sen. Dave Aronberg (candidate for AG) puts it best --



Ditto that last sentence. Call Gov. Crist!

Now I am always up for a good conspiracy but they started debating that bill on the house floor earlier in the day and I understood the vote was suppose to happen at 8 or 10 PM, can not remember which one, and they allowed debate to continue until after 2 AM.

Coley has said in the paper that she is against it, but she would vote for it anyway, (as she often does for things she says she is against).

Drake must have voted for it because he is not in the list of NO votes I read this morning. I spoke to his office two days ago, but never got an indication from Kevin as to which way Brad was leaning. He comes from a family of educators though. So his yes vote is a little bit surprising.

Crist is starting to indicate he may veto it, Senator Thrasher has offered to put together a "reconciliation bill", (where have I heard that before), to make it more palatable if Crist will sign it.

 

[mdd88jd]

This bill is a radical change in the law in the State of Florida and a real change for teachers. Obviously, we will do what the State mandates but, I have several concerns. Fundamentally, the bill requires school to base at least half of a teacher's performance review on the results (improvement or lack of improvement) of a standardized test. The test for middle and high schoolers will include the FCAT for reading, math, science, but, will also include end of year standardized test for each of the non-FCAT subjects, i.e., art, history, p.e., social studies. We believe that the FCAT will eventually disappear in favor of pre- and post class standard tests for each subject or grade level. If a teacher does not have enough of an improvement for their students over a years time, their performance review will reflect that and their pay will be tied to that lack of performance and they could would lose their jobs after a period of time and could lose their certification. There would be no tenure and all teachers hired after a certain date would be on one year contracts. There can be no differentiation in pay for degrees earned, national certification earned and experience.

I have problems with this approach. First, no teacher will want to teach less prepared or motivated students. They will not want to teach students with disabilities or lower I.Qs. Second, the latest version of the bill I saw does not take mobility into consideration. Third, how do you test performance in classes like art, p.e., drivers' ed. etc. Fourth, teachers with advances degrees in their subject area, i.e., Masters in History or English, usuall make much better teachers. Under, this plan, a teacher would have no financial incentive to secure advanced degrees.

I am afraid that there will be a rush of teachers out of the state and our county or within our county to schools and classrooms without lower performing schools.

Tenure is a controversial subject. I agree tenure sometimes protects bad teachers. But, in my experience, tenure protects good teachers from the whims of local politicians and radicals from both sides of the aisle. Can't you forsee the day when a science teacher is given bad performance reviews for no real educational reason when she is teaching evolution instead of some other theory? Remember, the standarize test score is only half of the performance review. Tenure would protect her now, but, without, and with a one year contract, academic freedom would be in serious jeopardy.

Those are my initial thoughts. Legally, I wonder how they can square this bill with the labor laws in the State and the U.S. regarding collective bargaining.

I am sure you have other thoughts and as always, I am interested in hearing them.

 

[GoodWitch58]

it would not surprise me to see another Teacher Strike like in '68 or '69...or, teachers just leaving to either teach in another state, or leave the profession all together.

if one has not taught in a classroom, it may be difficult to understand what a horrendous job it is--And,to judge anything, student performance, or teacher performance, by a standardized test, is the height of stupidity IMO. There are so many other factors that go into the education of a student.

Believe me, when all is said and done, it is the children of Florida who will lose if this bill is allowed to become law--and ultimately we all lose, because these children are the leaders and workers of tomorrow.

If one digs deeply enough, I am sure there is a benefit here for someone who has nothing to do with educating our children.

Shame on the members of the legislature for going along with this travesty! And shame especially on those who are former teachers or administrators!

 

[Bob Wells]

Seems like we are on our way down. It seems there was a time when schools were growing like crazy, we had a hard time hiring teachers, I can see this happening, in a few years when the likes of Gaetz, Coley, Atwater, Bennett are gone, someone not beholden to Jeb, who I voted for twice, will see what we allowed to happen and make changes. I talked to Representative Coley and she told me that SB 6 needed some work before she could vote for it. Obviously enough was changed, or she changed her mind. I suppose this Fire Fighter will happily support Pleat.

 

[lms47]

This bill is atrocious and dangerous to students AND educators EVEYWHERE!! At this point in time, I am too angry to calmly and objectively debate the issue.....sorry.

 

[Interested Girl]

As these things so often go in Tallahassee, the House version of SB6 passed in the middle of the night last night.

I was surprised not to see anything on SB6 on the board, because this wildly unpopular bill was supported for our two Yes Men -- Sen. Don Gaetz and Rep. Marti Coley both voted yes.

For background on the bill, the fabulous Sen. Dave Aronberg (candidate for AG) puts it best --



Ditto that last sentence. Call Gov. Crist!

Hey Ranpunzel - I seem to have forgotten exactly what time it was when the US House passed ObamaCare. Could you please check that fact for me and post it.

Thanks - I appreciate it.

It seems to me that when they passed it 59% of the people were in opposition as well.

 

[Interested Girl]

This bill is a radical change in the law in the State of Florida and a real change for teachers. Obviously, we will do what the State mandates but, I have several concerns. Fundamentally, the bill requires school to base at least half of a teacher's performance review on the results (improvement or lack of improvement) of a standardized test. The test for middle and high schoolers will include the FCAT for reading, math, science, but, will also include end of year standardized test for each of the non-FCAT subjects, i.e., art, history, p.e., social studies. We believe that the FCAT will eventually disappear in favor of pre- and post class standard tests for each subject or grade level. If a teacher does not have enough of an improvement for their students over a years time, their performance review will reflect that and their pay will be tied to that lack of performance and they could would lose their jobs after a period of time and could lose their certification. There would be no tenure and all teachers hired after a certain date would be on one year contracts. There can be no differentiation in pay for degrees earned, national certification earned and experience.

I have problems with this approach. First, no teacher will want to teach less prepared or motivated students. They will not want to teach students with disabilities or lower I.Qs. Second, the latest version of the bill I saw does not take mobility into consideration. Third, how do you test performance in classes like art, p.e., drivers' ed. etc. Fourth, teachers with advances degrees in their subject area, i.e., Masters in History or English, usuall make much better teachers. Under, this plan, a teacher would have no financial incentive to secure advanced degrees.

I am afraid that there will be a rush of teachers out of the state and our county or within our county to schools and classrooms without lower performing schools.

Tenure is a controversial subject. I agree tenure sometimes protects bad teachers. But, in my experience, tenure protects good teachers from the whims of local politicians and radicals from both sides of the aisle. Can't you forsee the day when a science teacher is given bad performance reviews for no real educational reason when she is teaching evolution instead of some other theory? Remember, the standarize test score is only half of the performance review. Tenure would protect her now, but, without, and with a one year contract, academic freedom would be in serious jeopardy.

Those are my initial thoughts. Legally, I wonder how they can square this bill with the labor laws in the State and the U.S. regarding collective bargaining.

I am sure you have other thoughts and as always, I am interested in hearing them.

if I remember correctly Mark you are an attorney - do you have tenure with the State Bar. I am sure that we all need lawyers and doctors protected from unfair treatment by clients when they do not provide adequate expertise in representing them, or injure them.

Good Bill - Will improve the quality of education.

Good teachers have nothing to fear in this bill.