The American Dream

[DuneAHH]

Usually more than 24K and involving precious stones too. ;-)

Canoehead's mom has more bling than most rappers, but she thinks anyone who pays more than $3K for a car is insane.

Does she live in one of the states that have annual property taxes on vehicles?

In Kansas, fiscally prudent folks do not buy brand NEW vehicles; not only because of the instant off-the-lot value drop... but primarily due to the everlasting high (hundreds per year!) vehicular property taxes.

 

[TNJed]

TNJed, for those of us who are fiscally illiterate, such as I, your explaination and postings regarding the Fed have been most illuminating. While some may not have the fiscal acuity of others such as you, we have been raised through the depression to save, save, save. From some of what I read, that may all be for nought although I might be misintrepting. Nevertheless, thank you most sincerely for the explainations and your personal insight into our financial mess.

Andy, I'm happy you've found some useful information in this thread. Thank you for your kind words. My ideas are far from original so I'd feel remiss to accept any kind of credit. Other forums and sites I participate in, all carry the same stance I do (of course) and it can be an echo chamber at times. In hindsight, I may have started a little strong and should have started in 1st gear. I realize this is coming out of left field for most with nothing better to do than talk finance.

I also realize this is a very personal topic for everyone. And I want to make clear I am in no way a qualified financial adviser. I do wear my heart on my sleeve and give my personal trading convictions. Right place and right time can be two painfully different things. My concentration has been on a macro-view and between now and then, many things can happen. Please use the information I post only to consider and form your own convictions. I believe in order to be confident in your decisions you must believe it to your core and for your own reasons.

I'll probably tone down my comments from here forward as I've said all I really have to say on the subject, but I will continue to stand by my thoughts. Probably just post articles or sites people may find useful. It's an important topic and I only wanted to provide a different angle on things and perhaps spur some constructive dialog.

All this being said, I am very optimistic about what lies ahead. The opportunity we may have to really do things right combined with that great can-do American spirit makes me look forward to a brighter tomorrow.

All the best!

 

[Bob]

Throw it at me, I'm pretty sure I can handle it. Been through a muck of you know what, came out the other side smelling like something different. ;-)

andy dushawshank

 

[Jesus]

Did you know a penny prior to 1982 is 95% copper and that penny is worth .03 in melt value? That is the difference between fiat face value, and real world tangible value. 200%

Did you know ANY nickle is worth .07 in melt value? A $2 roll of nickels is worth $2.75. That's a 37% increase due to just raw metal value.

There are a lot of people out there buying Ryedale machines, which separate copper from zinc pennies. They are hoarding copper just like people now hoard silver. There was a time when all coins contained 90% silver. These coins are now worth 22x face value. There will be a time in the future when people look back and remember when copper pennies used to circulate freely.

Services

YouTube - Ryedale Coin Penny Sorter

If the idea of gold or silver scares you, then buy a box of nickels. Or rather, get a box of nickels. Your downside is nil as you get them for face value, but the melt value is an instant 37% return. Of course, the defacing and melt ban will have to be lifted to recognize this gain but look at silver "junk" coinage. They trade at 22x face today.

Portland Mint is selling copper pennies by the ton, presorted. For self sorters, I've heard the average find rate of pre-'82 pennies is about 20%. Keep your coppers and nickels.

Coin Calculators Measuring Metal Value - Coinflation.com

A forum for coin roll hunters:

Realcent.org • View forum - Bullion Coins and Metals Investing Forums

How much does it cost to melt down 100 lbs of pennies?

 

[poppy]

Did you know a penny prior to 1982 is 95% copper and that penny is worth .03 in melt value? That is the difference between fiat face value, and real world tangible value. 200%

Did you know ANY nickle is worth .07 in melt value? A $2 roll of nickels is worth $2.75. That's a 37% increase due to just raw metal value.

There are a lot of people out there buying Ryedale machines, which separate copper from zinc pennies. They are hoarding copper just like people now hoard silver. There was a time when all coins contained 90% silver. These coins are now worth 22x face value. There will be a time in the future when people look back and remember when copper pennies used to circulate freely.

Services

YouTube - Ryedale Coin Penny Sorter

If the idea of gold or silver scares you, then buy a box of nickels. Or rather, get a box of nickels. Your downside is nil as you get them for face value, but the melt value is an instant 37% return. Of course, the defacing and melt ban will have to be lifted to recognize this gain but look at silver "junk" coinage. They trade at 22x face today.

Portland Mint is selling copper pennies by the ton, presorted. For self sorters, I've heard the average find rate of pre-'82 pennies is about 20%. Keep your coppers and nickels.

Coin Calculators Measuring Metal Value - Coinflation.com

A forum for coin roll hunters:

Realcent.org • View forum - Bullion Coins and Metals Investing Forums

Screw melt price, before anyone starts destroying thousands of pennies think of collectors and spend a bit of time and find their true value.

Lincoln Penny Value is Amazing for the Right Coin

Today's Lincoln penny value for common date "wheat" cents dated 1909-1958 start at $1.75 for a roll of 50 coins.
First minted in 1909, itself a desirable coin, the series also includes many other rare and valuable dates. For example, find a 1933-D and its minimum value is $2.50. If you have a 1931-S you are holding a coin worth at least $63.
Additionally, the better the state of preservation of your coins, the more appealing to collectors they become and the more they are willing to pay.
Pictured is a beautiful 1958 Uncirculated Lincoln Penny all collectors would enjoy adding to their collection. Gather and sort your Lincoln pennies and discover their values.
Lincoln Penny Value-What Dealers Pay

The following Lincoln penny value chart shows clearly dealers and collectors pay a premium for better grade coins. If your Wheat Cent is close to a higher grade and the much higher value, absolutely have it graded by either NGC or the PCGS grading service. More information about these services below.
Lincoln Penny Value
1909-1958

Condition of CoinDateGood - GFine - FExtremely Fine
XFUncirculated1909 $1.92 $3.20 $4.38 $12.75 1909 VDB $9.10 $11.00 $12.00 $21.00 1909 S $52.00 $110.00 $182.50 $256.88 1909 S VDB $465 $833 $1,106 $1,463 1910 $0.34 $0.60 $3.07 $16.25 1910 S $10.25 $14.30 $43.00 $97.25 1911 $0.38 $1.19 $4.55 $17.25 1911 D $2.83 $6.18 $47.25 $108.75 1911 S $26.67 $46.15 $60.25 $136.13 1912 $0.92 $1.73 $11.50 $28.50 1912 D $3.88 $8.78 $67.13 $103.50 1912 S $13.33 $21.23 $52.50 $138.75 1913 $0.48 $1.14 $14.50 $25.50 1913 D $1.83 $2.71 $21.00 $89.50 1913 S $7.00 $14.08 $43.25 $108.38 1914 $0.63 $1.84 $14.75 $39.38 1914 D $108.17 $251.33 $637.50 $2,025.00 1914 S $12.83 $21.23 $73.50 $195.38 1915 $1.04 $2.82 $48.25 $75.38 1915 D $1.00 $2.97 $21.75 $56.25 1915 S $11.67 $16.03 $60.00 $142.50 1916 $0.03 $0.81 $5.69 $33.38 1916 D $0.88 $2.65 $16.75 $71.25 1916 S $1.50 $3.20 $21.00 $79.50 1917 $0.03 $0.28 $3.25 $14.25 1917 D $0.74 $2.19 $32.25 $58.75 1917 S $0.31 $1.33 $8.75 $63.75 1918 $0.10 $0.65 $2.82 $11.25 1918 D $0.73 $1.90 $13.69 $73.50 1918 S $0.52 $1.19 $8.75 $93.38 1919 $0.03 $0.87 $1.00 $10.13 1919 D $0.58 $1.04 $12.00 $48.75 1919 S $0.25 $1.19 $3.74 $45.00 1920 $0.03 $0.54 $1.99 $10.88 1920 D $0.76 $1.97 $16.50 $60.00 1920 S $0.50 $1.11 $10.00 $75.00 1921 $0.41 $0.65 $9.25 $35.63 1921 S $1.21 $3.01 $26.25 $95.00 1922 $381 $774 $1,416 RARE 1922 D $11.00 $14.52 $28.25 $105.00 1923 $0.29 $0.54 $4.53 $30.00 1923 S $2.13 $5.32 $29.25 $144.38 1924 $0.03 $0.47 $3.36 $15.38 1924 D $20.83 $38.13 $86.00 $245.00 1924 S $0.93 $2.49 $26.00 $80.63 1925 $0.03 $0.72 $2.38 $8.25 1925 D $0.54 $2.50 $13.88 $57.38 1925 S $0.63 $1.41 $11.00 $78.25 1926 $0.03 $0.36 $1.08 $6.94 1926 D $0.71 $2.55 $13.88 $67.50 1926 S $5.92 $8.45 $27.00 $217.50 1927 $0.03 $0.36 $1.30 $7.13 1927 D $0.77 $1.55 $5.73 $44.00 1927 S $1.00 $2.03 $11.25 $131.25 1928 $0.03 $0.36 $1.02 $6.75 1928 D $0.60 $1.52 $3.47 $43.13 1928 S $0.72 $1.77 $7.43 $52.50 1929 $0.03 $0.56 $2.07 $6.00 1929 D $0.38 $0.95 $4.21 $12.38 1929 S $0.39 $1.40 $4.96 $16.88 1930 $0.05 $0.33 $1.09 $3.75 1930 D $0.28 $0.72 $1.55 $7.13 1930 S $0.19 $0.34 $1.06 $7.50 1931 $0.45 $0.92 $2.73 $14.63 1931 D $2.58 $4.39 $10.00 $33.75 1931 S $63.33 $81.25 $92.08 $149.00 1932 $1.12 $2.11 $4.96 $13.88 1932 D $1.04 $1.63 $3.03 $18.75 1933 $1.04 $1.57 $4.44 $13.88 1933 D $1.59 $3.47 $10.50 $13.88 1934 $0.05 $0.20 $0.65 $5.50 1934 D $0.05 $0.24 $3.34 $32.00 1935 $0.05 $0.15 $0.49 $2.53 1935 D $0.05 $0.24 $0.60 $3.47 1935 S $0.05 $0.34 $1.63 $37.88 1936 $0.05 $0.23 $0.57 $3.71 1936 D $0.05 $0.23 $0.52 $5.06 1936 S $0.05 $0.21 $0.80 $11.25 1937 $0.05 $0.15 $0.63 $4.50 1937 D $0.05 $0.16 $0.42 $4.24 1937 S $0.05 $0.16 $0.46 $4.13 1938 $0.05 $0.15 $0.63 $6.21 1938 D $0.05 $0.26 $0.76 $6.51 1938 S $0.05 $0.24 $0.55 $4.86 1939 $0.05 $0.15 $0.29 $3.00 1939 D $0.16 $0.26 $0.80 $4.65 1939 S $0.13 $0.34 $0.55 $3.24 1940 $0.03 $0.20 $0.29 $3.30 1940 D $0.03 $0.29 $0.50 $3.45 1940 S $0.04 $0.28 $0.42 $4.37 1941 $0.03 $0.20 $0.33 $2.03 1941 D $0.03 $0.26 $0.59 $3.74 1941 S $0.04 $0.29 $0.59 $3.78 1942 $0.03 $0.18 $0.26 $1.62 1942 D $0.03 $0.20 $0.29 $1.81 1942 S $0.04 $0.25 $0.65 $7.03 1943 Zinc $0.10 $0.20 $0.28 $0.95 1943 D Zinc $0.14 $0.23 $0.51 $1.96 1943 S Zinc $0.18 $0.26 $0.50 $3.70 1944 $0.03 $0.03 $0.24 $0.60 1944 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.25 $0.74 1944 S $0.04 $0.04 $0.29 $1.59 1945 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $1.86 1945 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $1.53 1945 S $0.04 $0.04 $0.29 $1.06 1946 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.60 1946 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.39 1946 S $0.04 $0.04 $0.29 $1.39 1947 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $2.64 1947 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.70 1947 S $0.04 $0.04 $0.28 $1.08 1948 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.78 1948 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $1.20 1948 S $0.04 $0.04 $0.42 $2.02 1949 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $2.11 1949 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $1.07 1949 S $0.04 $0.04 $0.34 $1.62 1950 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $1.46 1950 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $1.11 1950 S $0.04 $0.04 $0.05 $0.97 1951 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $1.36 1951 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.46 1951 S $0.04 $0.04 $0.05 $0.72 1952 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $2.64 1952 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.44 1952 S $0.04 $0.04 $0.05 $4.10 1953 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.57 1953 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.26 1953 S $0.04 $0.04 $0.05 $0.54 1954 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.56 1954 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.34 1954 S $0.04 $0.04 $0.05 $0.34 1955 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.45 1955 DLB DIE ** ** $1,013 $1,688 1955 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.31 1955 S $0.03 $0.03 $0.15 $0.39 1956 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.18 1956 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.19 1957 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.16 1957 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.16 1958 $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.15 1958 D $0.03 $0.03 $0.04 $0.15 Lincoln Penny Value Updated 2010

The above are wholesale coin values. Computed from dealer's price lists with various mark-up factors figured in. They reflect closely what you would expect to receive when selling. Variations in value do occur subject to subtle grading points, collector demands and dealer needs. For more background information, see how value listings in the Coin Value Guide are determined.

 

[TNJed]

I just found this program from July '10 featuring Niall Ferguson and Mort Zuckerman which was moderated by David Gergen, whom I respect more than any other pundit.

Ferguson literally wrote the book on the Rothschild family, so he is more than familiar with all things central bank related. This panel provided some very interesting insights into the complexities we find ourselves in these modern times and it's not too late to turn back from the edge.

It was at the Aspen Ideas Festival and I wish it was more than an hour long! I think the audience wanted more time as well

FORA.tv - The Financial Crisis: Will It Lead to America's Decline?

FYI, I found this in a post on zero hedge | on a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero where I like to shop for ideas ;-)

 

[Mango]

Gold is nothing but a shiny yellow metal. This is a tulip bulb phase. Gold's industrial worth is probably around $30 per oz... and jewelry demand puts it around $80. the rest is exuberant speculation, that will end in tears.

I don't recall tulip bulbs being guarded in a Mint during the bulb rage.

perhaps you need to live through a full blown depression

The FEDS caused the first Depression and that's exactly where we are headed again, a global depression, IMHO. The world's richest 1% own over 40% of the wealth. Do you think that is just a coincidence? It is the manipulation of the markets and interest rates that have made the rich wealthy. The FEDS are a corrupt Agency manipulated by Bankers and the top 1% of the money in this Country. They are running out of ammunition to boost the economy and bubbles to create.

Notice that the problem was panic from un-diversified investors who did not know about investing, chose to invest all their funds in risky stocks over safer traditional methods, and invested in companies they knew nothing about.

That is why good assets in those areas are typically real estate or jewelry. They fluctuate less, hold value more, and are not tied to government vagaries.

Plus the women tend to control the assets more when it is in the form of their jewelry.

Hmmm....I wonder why sales at Tiffany's have risen so drastically?
Rich Americans Raise Consumer Spending With Little Help From Middle Class - Bloomberg

 

[DuneAHH]

The FEDS caused the first Depression and that's exactly where we are headed again, a global depression, IMHO. The world's richest 1% own over 40% of the wealth. Do you think that is just a coincidence? It is the manipulation of the markets and interest rates that have made the rich wealthy. The FEDS are a corrupt Agency manipulated by Bankers and the top 1% of the money in this Country. They are running out of ammunition to boost the economy and bubbles to create.

Hmmm....I wonder why sales at Tiffany's have risen so drastically?
Rich Americans Raise Consumer Spending With Little Help From Middle Class - Bloomberg

So this idjet can make a$inine self-justifying
statements about "heavy lifting" to the media.

I'd chip in on a gift certificate for a quality tar-n-feathers facial, redeemable at any one of the high end spas catering to the 1%... they've certainly earned it after all that "heavy lifting".:roll:

?The heavy lifting is being done by the upper-income households,? said Michael Feroli, a former Federal Reserve economist who is now chief U.S. economist at JPMorgan Chase & Co. in New York.

 

[Mango]

So this idjet can make a$inine self-justifying
statements about "heavy lifting" to the media.

I'd chip in on a gift certificate for a quality tar-n-feathers facial, redeemable at any one of the high end spas catering to the 1%... they've certainly earned it after all that "heavy lifting".:roll:

Yep, their poor fingernails and hands will need some Madge after they finish converting their fiat money to gold earrings, earned through the FEDS making over exuberant statements about the economy.

 

[beachFool]

The FEDS caused the first Depression[/B] and that's exactly where we are headed again, a global depression, IMHO.

You are entitled to your opinion but not your own facts.

Andrew Jackson let the charter for the National Bank to lapse in 1836.

Coincidentally or not, there was a ferocious financial panic in 1837, followed by panics in 1857,1872,1893 and the granddaddy of them all, 1907.

The Federal Reserve was created in 1915 to provide liquidity for the banking system.

The USA was alone among industrialized nations without a national bank.

No credible source I can find blames the Federal Reserve for the Great Depression and I shudder to think had the Federal Reserve not been available to provide liquidity in 2008.

During the last century we have had two financial panics with the Fed compared with five in seventy years without a mechanism to provide liquidity.