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Uncle Timmy

Beach Fanatic
Nov 15, 2004
1,013
32
Blue Mountain Beach
You insinuated that we were completely reliant on MidEast oil. I said it wasn?t true, that we imported more oil from Canada than we do the entire region combined, and we only imported about half of what we consume. That was true at FYE05 numbers I found, so good work on finding new ones. Yes, a loss of several thousand barrels per day is something to worry about. Again on making jumps ? why are the Sauds going to quit shipping oil our way and how it their regime going to fall?

Oh no, you're not getting off the hook that easily. Look up the numbers regarding the economic impact of 9-11.

Then look up studies that examine the projected impact of the loss of oil from the Middle East, (or just Saudi Arabia if that is easier to find).

Lets compare those numbers first and discuss the potential impact of America's Energy Achilles Heal versus Terrorism on our national security.

Then I will be happy to walk you thru a discussion about why Iraq and Bush's policies have put us at great risk.
 

Mango

SoWal Insider
Apr 7, 2006
9,699
1,368
New York/ Santa Rosa Beach
I am thinking how much fun this would all be with a live audience, say at Red Bar. The thread's major players could sit up front and discuss, everybody drinks, and the peanut gallery cheers at the appropriate (or the more common inappropriate) moment.:clap_1: What say y'all?

:eek: How bout we just break out Skunky's telescope and look for the Orion Nebula. :party:
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
Oh no, you're not getting off the hook that easily. Look up the numbers regarding the economic impact of 9-11.

Then look up studies that examine the projected impact of the loss of oil from the Middle East, (or just Saudi Arabia if that is easier to find).

Lets compare those numbers first and discuss the potential impact of America's Energy Achilles Heal versus Terrorism on our national security.

Then I will be happy to walk you thru a discussion about why Iraq and Bush's policies have put us at great risk.

First tell me how Bush's policies are going to force the collapse of the Saudi regime. You have yet to do that. How bout you walk me through that, professor.
 

Chickpea

Beach Fanatic
Dec 15, 2005
1,151
366
30-A Corridor
Oh and I?ll add Part IV to my plan.

In order to quickly reduce the enormous amount of anti-American sentiment in the region (again, I believe we can not risk the overthrow of the pro-American regimes) I would shift US policy on the Arab-Israeli conflict.

-Endorse the Saudi Peace Proposal, which in effect the Arab countries offer Israel a full peace in exchange for a withdrawl to 1967 borders.

-Make clear the International Community?s commitment to this peace plan and to buffer the somewhat weakened military position it puts Israel by allowing Israel admission into NATO.

-Allow the creation of a Palestinian state.

-End the expansion of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories. Allow existing settlements to remain, but under Palestinian authority. (under strict security guarantees). This is a tough part of the plan, but millions of Arabs live within Israel so a million or so Israelis can live within what is recognized as Palestine.

-Palestinians will be asked to give up ?the right of return? issue in exchange for billions of dollars in US aid money.

I believe that this would go a long way to diffuse the tension in the mid-east. And, I believe it is the fair and correct policy for the US.

Uncle Timmy,
I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point and would say that most foreign policy advisors at this juncture would agree as they HAVE to know that 'staying the course' vis-a-vis our one sided policies towards Israel continues to bring about resentment and rage in the Islamic world, and specifically in the Middle East. Helping bring about a peaceful and FAIR solution, such as the examples you state (the right of refugees which is so touchy will probably never happen and they should therefore be compensated BUT following this there should be monitoring of settlers moving in - if a Russian jew for example would like to emigrate to Israel, then it should only be allowed to happen if a palestinian refugee who also wants to return to his homeland is granted permission as well).

To answer 6th gen question about why Saudi would worry:

If the Sunnis are returned to power in Iraq it will certainly assuage the Saudis who now must be terrified of the rise of Shia power and consequently fear, as King Abdallah predicted, the Shia crescent in the mid east growing disproportionately stronger by virtue of its sheer numbers and with Iran's backing. For those of you interested in this debate, please read this article pulled last summer after devastating war in Lebanon:


July 25, 2006 The Real Challenge From the 'Shia Crescent'
by Ehsan AhrariAs Lebanon's civilian infrastructure is being destroyed by the Israeli air force and artillery, the Arab leaders are fighting their own petty "sectarian war." The first salvo of that war was fired by King Abdullah of Jordan in December 2004 when he described the emerging alliance as a "Shia crescent." He was describing the "coalition" between Iran, the Alawite-ruled Syria, Lebanon's Hezbollah, and the Syrian branch of the Hamas movement. Then President Hosni Mubarak made the controversial observation that the Shias of Iraq owe their loyalty to Iran, a comment that annoyed many in Iraq's unity government.
There is little doubt that a new political-religious fault line is developing in the Middle East. The Sunni Arabs are worried about the emergence of an Iran-Iraq nexus over the long run. These are two important countries, and their potential cooperation would at least challenge the Sunni dominance of Persian Gulf-Levant affairs. Assuming that the regime of Bashar al-Assad stays in power, Syria will also become a part of that nexus, since the ruling elite of Syria is Alawite, which is a Shia sect.
The most important aspect of this Shia crescent is the fact that Shia Islam has been open to revolutionary change. After all, there was an Islamic revolution in Iran in 1978-1979. That revolution played an extremely crucial role in politicizing the Shias of Lebanon and those of the Persian Gulf region, most importantly Bahrain, which also has a Shia majority.
Revolutionary Shia Islam has been the religion of the state of Iran. About the only real challenge the ayatollahs face these days is from the reformers, some of whom claim to prefer Western secular democracy as an alternative to the Islamic republic. However, there is no Islamic version of another revolutionary ideology to challenge the revolutionary credentials of the ayatollahs.
Sunni Islam has its own revolutionary version, the Salafi jihadists. The Salafi jihadists are at war with the existing regimes in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and a number of other major Muslim countries. Further east, the government of Pakistan has been declared a legitimate target of these jihadists because of its close ties with the United States in the post-9/11 era. The same forces are also rampant in Afghanistan and Bangladesh. In Indonesia, the Salafi jihadists are challenging the duly elected government.
Back in the Middle East, there is a major fight brewing between the Sunni jihadists and a number of governments. Those governments are under increased pressure from the United States to democratize and even to liberalize Islam. That very suggestion puts these governments in a precarious position, because any measures to reform educational curricula are envisaged within their polities as aimed at sabotaging Islam. This perception also leads to further erosion of the legitimacy of those governments. A classic example of this growing dilemma is faced by Saudi Arabia. Egypt is also feeling the same type of pressure and related anxieties.
No clear political-military alliance is developing among the Sunni states to counter the Salafi jihadist threat. In fact, an argument can be made that the Sunni governments are confused about how proactive they ought to be in reforming their Islamic curricula without triggering the criticism from Sunni religious scholars that they are playing politics with Islam merely to appease the United States.
Shia Islam in Iran and Syria is free of such profound tensions that undermine the legitimacy of the governments. In Iraq, the legitimacy of the national unity government is not being questioned by the Shias or the Kurds. Even the Sunnis are getting over their major misgivings and are gradually cooperating with the government of Nouri al-Maliki.
As a leading Shia state, Iran's prestige in the world appears to be on the rise. It is being offered a major political-economic package by the Perm-5 Plus-1 as an enticement for abandoning its uranium enrichment program. It just attended the meeting of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization as an observer, and is reported to be joining it in the near future. Iran's membership in that entity is important, considering the fact that both China and Russia ? two major members of the SCO ? are Iran's chief defenders in the UN Security Council, which is considering sanctions against Iran in view of its refusal to accept the aforementioned package.
The United States has agreed to initiate a dialogue with Iran on stabilizing Iraq. That dialogue has not yet started; however, the Sunni Arab states are not pleased by the fact that Iran ? a Shia state ? will be negotiating about the political stability (or the lack thereof) of Iraq with the United States, while no Sunni state is expected to be a party to such talks.
To top it all off, Iran is supposed to be playing a major role in the decision of Lebanon's Hezbollah to initiate a major conflict with Israel. It is possible that when Hezbollah guerrillas crossed into Israeli territory, kidnapping two soldiers and killing eight, they did not expect the Jewish state to unleash the kind of disproportionate response that it has. Unless the ultimate outcome of this conflict emerges in the total dismantling of Hezbollah as a military organization, Iran's alleged role in giving a green light to Hezbollah to carry out that attack will not result in a diminution of its clout in the Middle East.
Even under the worst-case scenario from the vantage point of Iran ? a major blow to Hezbollah ? that organization's popularity in the Middle East is at an all-time high. Hezbollah is perceived in the Arab streets not as a Shia organization, but as an Arab organization that can challenge mighty Israel, which no Arab state can even imagine doing.
In the post-9/11 era, when Arab self-esteem is much damaged as a result of the conquest of Iraq, when the Bush doctrine continues to hang as Damocles' sword over the head of Syria, when the Arabs see their religion under attack in the Western media, Hezbollah's gutsy and plucky decision to confront the Jewish state has, rightly or wrongly, become a source of considerable cheer.
The Sunni Arab states are wary of the long-term spill-over effect of this particular development, especially regarding Iran's ability to exploit it for its strategic purposes in its future negotiations with the United States. This is one reason why the Saudi government was so critical of Hezbollah for provoking Israel. The Saudis might have had second thoughts about their harsh comments, since they followed up by also criticizing Israel.
The real significance of the emerging Shia crescent is that it is challenging the strategic dominance of the United States in a manner that no Sunni state ever did. The only similar challenge to both the U.S. and the Sunni states is coming from Salafi forces. However, since no state is behind those forces, the real threat stemming from their activities has not yet jelled. The Shia crescent, on the contrary, carries with it the support of Iran and Syria. In that sense, it is more threatening than the Salafists to the traditional orientations of the Sunni Arab states. The United States appears a little wary of the emerging Shia crescent for the very same reason. It has been easier for Washington to co-opt the Sunni states. The rising Shia challenge appears to be too radical and too unwilling to be tamed.

Iran has been a major state in the Middle East for a long time. It is likely to remain so. In the final analysis, its gain or loss of clout and political influence will be determined by its capabilities to maneuver effectively as a major nation-state, not as a major Shia power. The Sunni Arab leaders appear to be underscoring the "Shia factor" purely as an ill-conceived political ploy.
 

6thGen

Beach Fanatic
Aug 22, 2005
1,491
152
Palestinians refugees returning to their homeland? The term ?Palestinians? was used to describe Jews living in the area until the 60s. What is the ethnic difference between a Palestinian in the current sense and a Jordanian or a Syrian? Also, care to contrast the rights of Muslim citizens in Israel to Jewish citizens in neighboring states? Finally, please cite some examples of when appeasement worked in regards to Muslim states.

I know the answer, I just want Timmy to articulate it before he goes off on his banal tripe. The Sauds are best when the Sunnis and Shiites are killing each other, as the savages in that region are wont to do. However, as the left loves to point out, much of the funding for 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia, so you see what happens when the regime is left to its own. What the author barely touched on in the subject analysis is that destabilization of the region was necessary. Although we were duped by the Iranians in the beginning, we had strong reason to believe that the mess in Iraq would not be what it is, and that a secular Shiite controlled Iraq would put pressure on the ayatollah and Iran to move towards a more secular government. We still expect Iran to move left, but it is taking longer and costing more (you know, through the surge thing). As I mentioned before as a possibility, the best thing that could happen would be for The Knesset to issue a vote of no confidence in Olmert, and Likud take over and do more damage to Iran and Hezbollah. This would weaken the Shiites the way we weakened the Sunnis, although to a lesser extent. This would also let the Sauds breathe a little easier, even though they are not currently or tentatively facing real threat of overthrow and have no reason to stop shipping oil west.

As for your article, the Israel response was dictated by the bombing of Haifa more than it was by the kidnappings. Hezbollah, gutsy as your article points out, was going to keep pushing until Israel responded. Israel showed weakness, which was unprecedented, which is why Olmert is toast.
 

Teresa

SoWal Guide
Staff member
Nov 15, 2004
30,909
9,501
South Walton, FL
sowal.com
oh God, you guys are really up on middle east history and politics. you are giving me a real headache! I am as limited in my middle east knowledge as our Prez. Embarrasing, but true. :blush: At least he's been there a time or two...

welcome to the Bush is an Idiot thread, may I take your lunch order, please? :D :lol: :razz:

okay, I'll lurk and learn.
 

Mango

SoWal Insider
Apr 7, 2006
9,699
1,368
New York/ Santa Rosa Beach
Palestinians refugees returning to their homeland? The term ?Palestinians? was used to describe Jews living in the area until the 60s. .

Palestinians refers to descendants of Arabs (mostly Muslim) who inhabitated Palestine.
The United Nations definition of "Palestinian refugee" is as follows: "Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict" This definition of a refugee also covers " the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948."
 
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