Torture in Iraq

[jimmyp5]

The US, British and other forces have done their best to give the Iraqi citizens freedom, and some of them, along with many from other countries, are doing everything they can to thwart it.

Bottom line on "giving" them freedom ... they don't want it, can't handle it, don't understand it, aren't ready for it, can't make use of it, have a different definition of it... something like that.

Did you ever try to give someone something they didn't want? Did you ever try to get someone to like you or love you, that just didn't? You can't make them, period. It ultimately hurts you more than it hurts, or helps, them.

 

[6thGen]

Rancid,
You will never get a coherent answer, let alone a compassionate one. There will never be an ounce of understanding for other's views, let alone an attempt at being self analytical for fear of being perceived as being less patriotic - it is the childish attitude of "they hit us so we will hit them stronger and show them!!!"

I've never brought up patriotism, so I don't know where you are going there. And Bob, I've never said that everything is absolute, or everything is black and white. I've listed a few examples. And I've also said that converting others' religion by the sword is always wrong, so your comment that I am the pot in this case because I believe in certain absolutes is not only poorly grounded, it contradicts exactly what I posted in the thread to which you responded.

 

[6thGen]

Bottom line on "giving" them freedom ... they don't want it, can't handle it, don't understand it, aren't ready for it, can't make use of it, have a different definition of it... something like that.

Did you ever try to give someone something they didn't want? Did you ever try to get someone to like you or love you, that just didn't? You can't make them, period. It ultimately hurts you more than it hurts, or helps, them.

I didn't support the war because it gave the Iraqis freedom, I supported it because it was to depose a regime that was actively threatening us and coddling terrorists. That is one reason I believe that this war had far more merit than the first invasion.

 

[6thGen]

6th Gen, your posts are making me think a bit, especially about the terrorists being cowards. What comes to mind is that when a small group goes up against the USA in a war, they cannot fight on the terms of gentlemen. There is no competition. It would be like playing a game of chess, and the terrorists getting only one pawn to start the game, where the opponent gets the full field of pieces. The only way the terrorists have a chance a of winning is to position the pawn as close to the opponent's king as possible, then lighting the fuse blowing up all around himself, including himself.

I've never been of the belief that war should be fair. There are those that would find reasons why Dahmer did what he did, but that doesn't make murder and cannibalism any less despicable.

 

[Smiling JOe]

I've never been of the belief that war should be fair. There are those that would find reasons why Dahmer did what he did, but that doesn't make murder and cannibalism any less despicable.

You did earlier mention that the suicide bombers were cowards, and I read that as the suicide bombers are not fighting in a gentlemanly manner, on fair grounds. That might not be the intentions of the statement, but that is the way I read it.

When outnumbered at war, there are no rules. You do whatever it takes to "win" the battle. If someone, or some country, comes to my community, threatening the lives of my friends, neighbors, and family, you can be guaranteed that the first thing I will do is throw away the list of rules, including those about killing people. War is about killing. What does it matter if it is with bombs dropped from aircraft, many miles away, or suicide bombers on the front row? It is killing either way you look at it.

I am not for the mass killing, and I am not trying to justify anyone's actions in this war. I am just stating one way it could be viewed.

 

[6thGen]

You did earlier mention that the suicide bombers were cowards, and I read that as the suicide bombers are not fighting in a gentlemanly manner, on fair grounds. That might not be the intentions of the statement, but that is the way I read it.

When outnumbered at war, there are no rules. You do whatever it takes to "win" the battle. If someone, or some country, comes to my community, threatening the lives of my friends, neighbors, and family, you can be guaranteed that the first thing I will do is throw away the list of rules, including those about killing people. War is about killing. What does it matter if it is with bombs dropped from aircraft, many miles away, or suicide bombers on the front row? It is killing either way you look at it.

I am not for the mass killing, and I am not trying to justify anyone's actions in this war. I am just stating one way it could be viewed.

I guess you could read it as not fighting as a gentleman, but I?m not asking them to don red coats and hire a drummer. I believe that dressing up as a civilian (or staging from a mosque for that matter) and targeting civilians, specifically women and children, is cowardly. If you want to mention camouflage, soldiers in camo do not depend on the goodwill and moral compass of their enemy to elude fire. As for war being killing, as I mentioned, war is tragic. However, the killing is not on the same parallel when targeting those that are not fighting. That is murder. It?s this country?s set of core values that condemns such, like we condemn and understand an arguably more nuanced difference of firing upon a citizen that was threatening when they are running away and firing on them when they are still posing a threat.

And I know that you are not for mass killing or justifying it, you?ve just given me a chance to clarify my opinion rather than disregarding taking the easy way out and avoiding discussion by disregarding it as uneducated, and myopic.

 

[30A Skunkape]

You did earlier mention that the suicide bombers were cowards, and I read that as the suicide bombers are not fighting in a gentlemanly manner, on fair grounds. That might not be the intentions of the statement, but that is the way I read it.

When outnumbered at war, there are no rules. You do whatever it takes to "win" the battle. If someone, or some country, comes to my community, threatening the lives of my friends, neighbors, and family, you can be guaranteed that the first thing I will do is throw away the list of rules, including those about killing people. War is about killing. What does it matter if it is with bombs dropped from aircraft, many miles away, or suicide bombers on the front row? It is killing either way you look at it.

I am not for the mass killing, and I am not trying to justify anyone's actions in this war. I am just stating one way it could be viewed.

The only difference is that many (if not most) of the 'fighters' strapping bombs on their belts or cars are not Iraqi and are doing it in the name of religion. I get the idea of defending the homeland (ala our own patriots inflicting damage to British regulars still fighting 'continental style')but the ability the radical Muslims have to instill so much hatred in their youth is disturbing.

 

[Smiling JOe]

The only difference is that many (if not most) of the 'fighters' strapping bombs on their belts or cars are not Iraqi and are doing it in the name of religion. I get the idea of defending the homeland (ala our own patriots inflicting damage to British regulars still fighting 'continental style')but the ability the radical Muslims have to instill so much hatred in their youth is disturbing.

Those people have been fighting over religion for thousands of years, and it seems a little crazy to me, too. I have an idea that we won't be changing that behavior, no matter how much we try to fight it. I agree that their ability to instill hatred in their youth is disturbing. We have seen similar behavior in other groups. Kids that age don't feel like they serve a purpose and living doesn't seem to be high on their list of things to do. Isn't there a company making "No Fear!" apparell? That is nothing like suicide bombing, but the message is very similar.

 

[scooterbug44]

I liken the Shia vs Shiite conflict to Protestants vs. Catholics. Generations of killing people who share your basic beliefs and hard to stop because of all the built up anger and resentment, not to mention the political motivations of the neighboring countries to keep it fueled.

On a related note, could someone tell me if there has been a war in the last 50 years where the guerillas/guerilla style tactics lost? It always seemed to me to be a smart way to fight.

 

[30A Skunkape]

I liken the Shia vs Shiite conflict to Protestants vs. Catholics. Generations of killing people who share your basic beliefs and hard to stop because of all the built up anger and resentment, not to mention the political motivations of the neighboring countries to keep it fueled.

On a related note, could someone tell me if there has been a war in the last 50 years where the guerillas/guerilla style tactics lost? It always seemed to me to be a smart way to fight.

Desert Storm, but it is easy to bomb the hell out of a uniformed enemy from 30,000 feet and then overtake them. Perhaps the reason the guerilla style seems popular is that countries with legit militaries no longer wage war on each other.