Torture in Iraq

Regardless of your thoughts on Iraq and the current President, it's pretty delusional to believe that the administration lacked the "cultural understanding" of foreign affairs to the degree apparently possessed by some on this board. Bush's father was at various times the director of the CIA, ambassador to the UN and a top liason between the US and China. I seriously doubt elder and younger didn't and don't discuss in detail foreign affairs. Bush has been surrounded by statesmen like Baker, Zoellick, Powell, Gates, Rice and others since before his first election. When he first came to office, Bush was disinclined towards US military and police involvement overseas and was critical of US involvement in Bosnia. 9-11 clearly changed Bush's view of the world. A lot of you guys are acting like Iraq was the picture of peace and tranquility before under Hussein. I doubt you would find many in the shia or kurdish community who would agree (I wonder if the little Kurdish community that got mustard gassed agrees that Hussein didn't have weapons of mass destruction). Despite what has been suggested, Iraq was no Lebanon which before the civil war had been a beacon of light for the middle east, progressive and well educated. It is what the US is trying to cultivate there once again. Some have said this discussion has reaffirmed their beliefs. What would change those beliefs? Many cry over the half million slaughtered in Darfur and want the US to do more there. Is an all out slaughter of even greater numbers between shia, sunni and kurds in Iraq that may destabilize Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Turkey and others with us watching from the supposed safety of the homeland ok?

Of course you are changing the subject. You are the political equivalent of a Wack-a-Mole.

So are you saying I change the subject faster than your father at a cocktail party when the subject of sons comes up?

So are you saying I change the subject faster than your father at a cocktail party when the subject of sons comes up?

A comment like that brings the word wienie to mind. :roll:

30Gay,
I just saw the Klansmen in the picture. You insinuate that I'm a racist again and this thread will start to sound like Buckley v. Vidal.

How did I miss the klan being in there the first time? That is pretty low.

6thGenTroll,

If you are a paid plant (which seems feasible to me), they are not getting their moneys worth! There have been so many well-informed responses and rebuttals that it would appear you might be in line for a pink slip.
But, I have learned much from reading this thread. Haven't changed my mind on how I feel about the Iraq mess, but have had it greatly reinforced through the learned folks on this board. You all rock!

.

You rock Rita!!!

So are you saying I change the subject faster than your father at a cocktail party when the subject of sons comes up?

This is a totally personal slam and I will do all that I can to see that you are banned...you are an insidious little troll

You rock Rita!!!

This is a totally personal slam and I will do all that I can to see that you are banned...you are an insidious little troll

Do as you will. I've been called a Nazi, uneducated (where I had just quoted a 19th century philosopher off the top of my head), a racist, a supporter of torture, a "troll" - whatever the hell that is, and insults for which no one can tell me what it is and you didn't say a word.

Regardless of your thoughts on Iraq and the current President, it's pretty delusional to believe that the administration lacked the "cultural understanding" of foreign affairs to the degree apparently possessed by some on this board. Bush's father was at various times the director of the CIA, ambassador to the UN and a top liason between the US and China. I seriously doubt elder and younger didn't and don't discuss in detail foreign affairs. Bush has been surrounded by statesmen like Baker, Zoellick, Powell, Gates, Rice and others since before his first election. When he first came to office, Bush was disinclined towards US military and police involvement overseas and was critical of US involvement in Bosnia. 9-11 clearly changed Bush's view of the world. A lot of you guys are acting like Iraq was the picture of peace and tranquility before under Hussein. I doubt you would find many in the shia or kurdish community who would agree (I wonder if the little Kurdish community that got mustard gassed agrees that Hussein didn't have weapons of mass destruction). Despite what has been suggested, Iraq was no Lebanon which before the civil war had been a beacon of light for the middle east, progressive and well educated. It is what the US is trying to cultivate there once again. Some have said this discussion has reaffirmed their beliefs. What would change those beliefs? Many cry over the half million slaughtered in Darfur and want the US to do more there. Is an all out slaughter of even greater numbers between shia, sunni and kurds in Iraq that may destabilize Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Turkey and others with us watching from the supposed safety of the homeland ok?

Yes, there have been and are some very intelligent and well educated people involved w/ the Iraq war and advising the president. Unfortunately that doesn't mean he is LISTENING to them - a source of frustration not just to the people posting on this board but some of the intellectual luminaries you cited. Additionally, part of the current cluster comes from the fact that a majority of the non-military personnel sent to Iraq were selected for their political connections and affiliations rather than their credentials and experience. Some of the instances of political infighting and cluelessness seem like a bad SNL or Daily Show sketch, but are unfortunately our government.

Iraq was obviously not a model of peace and tranquility under Saddam and his various atrocities, but the current conditions and tactics have created a rapidly growing refugee population of 2 million plus and an estimated 655,000 deaths.

Do as you will. I've been called a Nazi, uneducated (where I had just quoted a 19th century philosopher off the top of my head), a racist, a supporter of torture, a "troll" - whatever the hell that is, and insults for which no one can tell me what it is and you didn't say a word.

well, I have reconsidered. Sometimes it is not such a bad thing to get people's ire up. At least it makes people think. But your comment about the cocktail party was uncalled for and lowlife.

So are you saying I change the subject faster than your father at a cocktail party when the subject of sons comes up?

What?s wrong 6thGen, you can dish it out but you can?t take it? Typical.

All passion, no reason.

You can?t defend your positions you are taking here so the only response you can come up with is to attack the one who is challenging you? Lame.

Now run along lil? 6thGen, you need to find another inflammatory image or article to post before you are called on to defend the following assertions you have made in this one:

-Middle East culture is the most violent in history
-The ?animals? (your term) in Iraq represent the whole society and therefore do not warrant any understanding of that society
-Saddam was going to attack the US
-The surge is working
-Al Quaida was in Iraq prior to the invasion.
-Americans need to be sick to their stomach at the ?animals? and not ask any questions.
-If the US doesn?t continue in Iraq, we are weak.
-Not a single culture founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs would condone violence against others.
-Violence is socially accepted in the mid-east.
-Islam alone has been hijacked by extremists and is being turned into a death cult (your term) while Christians and Jews are inherently peaceful.
-The American public does not have the stomach for war, if we loose in Iraq it will be their fault, not Bush?s.
-Oh yes, and Olie is an average height fellow.

A real man would stick around and defend these assertions, logically. Or are you to be made a fool of again by this limp wristed pansy?

How did I miss the klan being in there the first time? That is pretty low.

Actually, it is completely relevant.

If we follow 6thGen?s line of reasoning, he is guilty of being part of a brutal and murderous society and therefore anyone should unleash swift and violent retribution upon him.

No questions asked; no attempt to ?understand? the society and the context of the KKK.

It exposes the stupidity of his initial point by showing how messy the whole line of thinking gets when someone points the same line of thinking in your direction.

but the current conditions and tactics have created a rapidly growing refugee population of 2 million plus and an estimated 655,000 deaths.

That 655,000 estimated Iraqi deaths due to our invasion was for the period since Mar '03 - Oct '06, when the study was conducted. That was seven months ago. I'm not sure about the accuracy of the study. I'm not a statistician, but the type of study sounded a little wierd when I read about it.

Don't start this "I haven't done anything wrong or called anyone names, so why am I being called names and picked on" horsepuckie again. Either you can have a sense of humor and take it as well as dish it out or you can't. If you are as smart and well educated as you claim, you should be able to distinguish between acceptable/ribald humor and just being an arse who makes personal attacks.

It's a day that ends in "Y" so 6thGen is right and we're all wrong and unfair

30Gay,
You can post all of the sweeping platitudes, quote me out of context, over-generalize every I say, insult me with words that you don?t know the meaning and continue as an evangelist for the most stereotypical of homosexuals, but I?m through responding to you. I don?t agree with rancid, or some of the others here, but they at least add something to the discussion rather than vulgar references, ironically misplaced insults and baseless arguments. I know your peanut gallery of middle aged women will love this, and I know you?ll believe it to be a victory, but to quote Ed Koch, ?'I can explain this to you; I can't comprehend it for you.?

Don't start this "I haven't done anything wrong or called anyone names, so why am I being called names and picked on" horsepuckie again. Either you can have a sense of humor and take it as well as dish it out or you can't. If you are as smart and well educated as you claim, you should be able to distinguish between acceptable/ribald humor and just being an arse who makes personal attacks.

It's a day that ends in "Y" so 6thGen is right and we're all wrong and unfair

I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've noted all of the name calling. I made a statement insinuating that 30Gay's father probably cringes at the thought of him bringing home a date, and someone said that I should be banned. So I was making the point that if calling me a racist and a Nazi is fair game, so is that.

Hey, who do I contact to get paid to post stuff on this bulletin board? :funn: :funn:

30Gay,
You can post all of the sweeping platitudes, quote me out of context, over-generalize every I say, insult me with words that you don?t know the meaning and continue as an evangelist for the most stereotypical of homosexuals, but I?m through responding to you. I don?t agree with rancid, or some of the others here, but they at least add something to the discussion rather than vulgar references, ironically misplaced insults and baseless arguments.

Ah, and just when we were starting to have some funn!

Poo-ee.

Well be forewarned that this ?evangelical of the most stereotypical homosexuals? is still playing the game. Any ridiculous comments that you make, and illogical arguments will be called to task.

Oh by the way, nobody is fooled by smoke screen response you made above. It is much easier to dismiss challenges as vulgar references and baseless arguments than it is to defend your assertions. We are still anxiously awaiting your attempt to logically back up your arguments.

Toot-a-loo for now!

Hey, who do I contact to get paid to post stuff on this bulletin board? :funn: :funn:

I don't know, but strangely I feel better about our government's strategizing if they are actually trying to control or influence us w/ postings on message boards. (I've been complaining about how one of the things hurting us in Iraq is the dearth of pro-US propaganda.) Their possible paid flunkie hasn't changed my mind or influenced me on anything, but I appreciate them making an effort!

Yes, there have been and are some very intelligent and well educated people involved w/ the Iraq war and advising the president. Unfortunately that doesn't mean he is LISTENING to them - a source of frustration not just to the people posting on this board but some of the intellectual luminaries you cited. Additionally, part of the current cluster comes from the fact that a majority of the non-military personnel sent to Iraq were selected for their political connections and affiliations rather than their credentials and experience. Some of the instances of political infighting and cluelessness seem like a bad SNL or Daily Show sketch, but are unfortunately our government.

Iraq was obviously not a model of peace and tranquility under Saddam and his various atrocities, but the current conditions and tactics have created a rapidly growing refugee population of 2 million plus and an estimated 655,000 deaths.

Ever heard of the Shaw Group? Big corporation with very close political connections to a Democratic Governor in Louisiana. Wanna guess who is getting the vast majority of Katrina dollars? If you think favoritism started with or was perfected by this current group of politicians, you're helplessly naive. As for political infighting and cluelessness, there's a favorite saying among some who have experienced it firsthand - "it's not organized crime the citizens have to fear, it's organized government." If it is as you say, you should take comfort that your liberties are secure.

The post was not to say that the Republicans are more guilty of favoritism or political pandering than the Democrats, but that the list of accomplished & credentialed folks you cited are not the ones in charge or whose ideas are being listened to.

I don't know, but strangely I feel better about our government's strategizing if they are actually trying to control or influence us w/ postings on message boards. (I've been complaining about how one of the things hurting us in Iraq is the dearth of pro-US propaganda.) Their possible paid flunkie hasn't changed my mind or influenced me on anything, but I appreciate them making an effort!

I appreciate the government paying intel to monitor suspected terrorists via the internet, or people who target underage children, but no, I don't appreciate them infiltating blogs and message boards trying to sway opinions by using extreme inflammatory language/pictures and over generalizations about an entire culture to justify their political motivations.

That was heavy sarcasm that they were actually trying to sway the "hearts and minds" of somebody and someone in the government was at least thinking of a quasi creative idea. If they really need something to spend time or money on I have along list of suggestions! ;-)

That was heavy sarcasm that they were actually trying to sway the "hearts and minds" of somebody and someone in the government was at least thinking of a quasi creative idea. If they really need something to spend time or money on I have along list of suggestions! ;-)

Well gull, use this smilie next time....... :roll: or

Love the 3rd one!

I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've noted all of the name calling. I made a statement insinuating that 30Gay's father probably cringes at the thought of him bringing home a date, and someone said that I should be banned. So I was making the point that if calling me a racist and a Nazi is fair game, so is that.

Insuinations will get you in trouble, every time. Your point was not well taken. You obviously have little sense of tolerance or compassion. It occurs to me that any points you have attempted to make have been overshadowed by you rigidity and insidiousness.