What is greed??

[LuciferSam]

how bout right here.

"morality is the result of our brain's convergence due to evolution"

expound on the relation to morality and evolution and how evolution produces morality? And what does "our brain's converging mean?

By brain converging I'm talking about gene mutation over millions of years among the animal kingdom. That's part of what causes evolution. We had to evolve behavior that was at least civil (moral) enough to give us time reproduce quicker than we killed each other off. The propagation of the individual depends on the survival of the species. The same goes for dogs, cats, porpoises, or anything for that matter. Look at a lot of animals. They sometimes show kindness (morality) to each other. It's innate. Well, its sure not because of belief in a higher power. Don't get me wrong, I think selfishness is still a very important survival trait. Just as an example of empathy (morality), why do some people cry at movies? Is it because of a belief in a higher power, or is it just a basic instinct they were born with?

 

[30ashopper]

how bout right here.

"morality is the result of our brain's convergence due to evolution"

expound on the relation to morality and evolution and how evolution produces morality? And what does "our brain's converging mean?

That's easy - to survive we have traits that compel us to band together in groups. In order for the group to survive, inherent rules evolve which keep the peace amongst the individuals within the group. It's all about group stability and survival.

 

[30ashopper]

By brain converging I'm talking about gene mutation over millions of years among the animal kingdom. That's part of what causes evolution. We had to evolve behavior that was at least civil (moral) enough to give us time reproduce quicker than we killed each other off. The propagation of the individual depends on the survival of the species. The same goes for dogs, cats, porpoises, or anything for that matter. Look at a lot of animals. They sometimes show kindness (morality) to each other. It's innate. Well, its sure not because of belief in a higher power. Don't get me wrong, I think selfishness is still a very important survival trait. Just as an example of empathy (morality), why do some people cry at movies? Is it because of a belief in a higher power, or is it just a basic instinct they were born with?

I believe all of our survival traits are selfish in nature, including empathy and morality.

 

[LuciferSam]

I believe all of our survival traits are selfish in nature, including empathy and morality.

Oh I do too. I love the book "The Selfish Gene". I'm trying to remember exactly what Dawkins says about cooperation among the species members, but I know that the gene can't survive without the species.

 

[30ashopper]

Oh I do too. I love the book "The Selfish Gene". I'm trying to remember exactly what Dawkins says about cooperation among the species members, but I know that the gene can't survive without the species.

Yeah I know, I read your book list a while back. (we agree on something!) It's a good book. Another good one is a book titled Demonic Males, you might check it out if you haven't already.

 

[JUL]

Greed can be a desire to accumulate and hold more of something than you need. We can be greedy with our time, so it's not just things or money.

Since jdarg threw out her Bible verse I'll share mine...Matthew 25:35-40
I'll paraphrase...Jesus tells his followers they will inherit the kingdom. He says when He was hungry they fed Him, when He was thirsty they gave Him drink. He said they visited Him, they took Him in, they clothed Him, they gave to Him. They answered when did we do these things to you Lord? His answer was when they did it for the least among them, they'd done it to Him.

Please take the time to read it, I can't do it justice. We are called to be God's hands on earth. This is why I want our country to help the least among us rather than the very wealthiest corporations. I believe we should do this personally as well, with our own charitable giving or volunteering. When you have much, much is expected. Once again this is just my interpretation and my belief. Luckily we live in America, you can believe what you want. But I have trouble sleeping at night when I know kids are cold and hungry. Should we let this happen in America?

When I was working as an er nurse it amazed me how many nurses would not feed people...they would say, "He's homeless and just here to eat...I'm not feeding him!" I thought that was always so cold and callous I of course would feed them..I just couldn't understand that!

 

[lerxst]

By brain converging I'm talking about gene mutation over millions of years among the animal kingdom. That's part of what causes evolution. We had to evolve behavior that was at least civil (moral) enough to give us time reproduce quicker than we killed each other off. The propagation of the individual depends on the survival of the species. The same goes for dogs, cats, porpoises, or anything for that matter. Look at a lot of animals. They sometimes show kindness (morality) to each other. It's innate. Well, its sure not because of belief in a higher power. Don't get me wrong, I think selfishness is still a very important survival trait. Just as an example of empathy (morality), why do some people cry at movies? Is it because of a belief in a higher power, or is it just a basic instinct they were born with?[/quote]

Well, I would simply call that emotion, which can be triggered by a movie or an emotional event. Nothing to do with whether someone believes in God or not, except that we were created in God's image and God has emotions, it's part of our make-up.
You are obviously a well-versed evolutionist. A theory I find that takes a lot of faith to subscribe to.
it's been interesting watching this thread "evolve" from the subject of greed to where we are now. As far as "what causes evolution" as you stated, never heard an answer of how the universe and life all started that made any sense to me yet...it has to have a cause.
I am a creationist, maybe another thread for that?

 

[30ashopper]

By brain converging I'm talking about gene mutation over millions of years among the animal kingdom. That's part of what causes evolution. We had to evolve behavior that was at least civil (moral) enough to give us time reproduce quicker than we killed each other off. The propagation of the individual depends on the survival of the species. The same goes for dogs, cats, porpoises, or anything for that matter. Look at a lot of animals. They sometimes show kindness (morality) to each other. It's innate. Well, its sure not because of belief in a higher power. Don't get me wrong, I think selfishness is still a very important survival trait. Just as an example of empathy (morality), why do some people cry at movies? Is it because of a belief in a higher power, or is it just a basic instinct they were born with?[/quote]

Well, I would simply call that emotion, which can be triggered by a movie or an emotional event. Nothing to do with whether someone believes in God or not, except that we were created in God's image and God has emotions, it's part of our make-up.
You are obviously a well-versed evolutionist. A theory I find that takes a lot of faith to subscribe to.
it's been interesting watching this thread "evolve" from the subject of greed to where we are now. As far as "what causes evolution" as you stated, never heard an answer of how the universe and life all started that made any sense to me yet...it has to have a cause.
I am a creationist, maybe another thread for that?

The paradox of evolutionary theory - "why?" Science though, in time will probably dig that answer up, but I doubt that will happen in my lifetime. There are a lot of theories out there, which is why we build these big atom smashers and travel to mars to do research. There's no easy answer though.

 

[LuciferSam]

By brain converging I'm talking about gene mutation over millions of years among the animal kingdom. That's part of what causes evolution. We had to evolve behavior that was at least civil (moral) enough to give us time reproduce quicker than we killed each other off. The propagation of the individual depends on the survival of the species. The same goes for dogs, cats, porpoises, or anything for that matter. Look at a lot of animals. They sometimes show kindness (morality) to each other. It's innate. Well, its sure not because of belief in a higher power. Don't get me wrong, I think selfishness is still a very important survival trait. Just as an example of empathy (morality), why do some people cry at movies? Is it because of a belief in a higher power, or is it just a basic instinct they were born with?[/quote]

Well, I would simply call that emotion, which can be triggered by a movie or an emotional event. Nothing to do with whether someone believes in God or not, except that we were created in God's image and God has emotions, it's part of our make-up.
You are obviously a well-versed evolutionist. A theory I find that takes a lot of faith to subscribe to.
it's been interesting watching this thread "evolve" from the subject of greed to where we are now. As far as "what causes evolution" as you stated, never heard an answer of how the universe and life all started that made any sense to me yet...it has to have a cause.
I am a creationist, maybe another thread for that?

I just want to say about greed, just to get back on topic, that I think it gets out of hand when a person's net worth and material possessions cause him grief about his self worth, and he keeps wanting more just to meet the expectations of his social circle. I'm talking about people who have more than what they need and are living comfortably.


Now for the other stuff, IMHO:

All I'm saying by the movie example is that I think at least some of our concern for fellow man (empathy-morality) is part of our chemistry, so you're right, it's emotion. I think the chemistry is a byproduct of evolution because there are similar traits in other animals and our DNA sequences are similar. There is convincing evidence for evolution. As far as why anything exists at all, evolution never tries to address that. Evolution doesn't even get into how the first life forms began, only how they mutate. I don't think too many scientists have firm beliefs about how life actually started. Is their lack of knowledge evidence of God? I don't happen to think so.

I just happen to take it as a given that the universe and the material in it has no beginning or no end the same way you might do with God, and that the universe may not always have had forms of life in it. The farthest I could go is to say that the Universe is God in a sense, I just don't know if the Universe is self-aware as God is said to be. Again I don't think anything created the matter in the universe the same way you don't think anything created God, it just is. I think somehow at some point the matter in the Universe changed form and life forms began. Evolution doesn't begin until right after that, so you could believe in both God and evolution without contradicting yourself. I just happen to believe in existence.

Some have speculated that it might take a self-aware universe to to get the first life forms started and guide them through the evolutionary process. Interesting, but I don't know. We don't know what causes consciousness (self-awareness). I would speculate that whatever it is, it's brain-like. Anyhow, I think this astronomical brain stuff is a good segue for this Floyd video:


http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5Tne92jfxo

 

[Mango]

Agree that it is lesser of agnostics than athiests, but agnostics still do not have a defined grounding for right and wrong. What is the source of truth, of right and wrong? You are too smart to use an intellectually lazy answer such as karma (which has a basis in Hindu faith), so don't be tempted.

I completely agree on a religious person's aversion. I mentioned acting for future streets of gold, but it can be further diluted to just making it across the gates. The intent of most faiths, mine included, is acting right for right's sake, not for future reward or fear of punishment. It's not easy to achieve, and isn't supposed to be, but that's the goal.

I have to disagree with the argument that atheists and agnostics do not have a defining ground for right or wrong. They find it morally objectionable that theists believe that a God will save them who also kills innocents. They value life, just disagree as to how it evolved and an afterlife. So, an argument can be made that they believe that our actions here on Earth dictate what societal norms should be and that is their defining ground.

As far as acting for right's sake, not for future reward, then explain why someone feels that they have been blessed when He rewards them with riches? I have met many Christians who believe that God has given them many gifts as it pertains to wealth. What makes one Christian more worthy of these gifts then another who believes equally?

I advocate discussing greed from a practical point of view. I have asked a few questions trying to bring a real world focus to the concept of greed and no takers.

How big a house is too big for one person? What is the size that if I go over I will be greedy?

I have never seen a good definition of greed. People seem to equate it with the accumulation of material things. You typically see definitions like "wanting more than their fair share" or "wanting money beyond what is necessary" but these are poor definitions.

Contrary to popular belief, it is not the desire for money that drives most business owners. It is a drive to achieve. Money is a report card. Many seem to associate greed with real world expression, that is, living life large.

I read an article about a young man who started the website, PlentyofFish.com. It is a dating site and is free to users. He runs it himself, does all the programming and design and hosts it from his apartment in Canada. In 2007, he earned one million from the site. He is projected to make $10 million this year. Is he greedy?

I have a friend who started a business two decades ago. It has been sucessful beyond his wildest dreams. He is probably worth $50 million. He lives in a non-descript condo and walks to his office. He drives a seven year old Ford Taurus. His vacations usually consist of visiting his parents in Florida and playing golf while he is there. His company is a partnership, a true partnership and he has helped make dozens of others wealthy. Is he greedy?

Another friend started a business years ago and is probably worth $10 million. She employs a number of people. She pays them and treats them poorly. Her entire life consists of accumulating money. She lives in a lower end condo and drives a ten year old Accord. The line about her is that you can find Abe Lincoln's whiskers around her because she squeezes her pennies so hard. She never takes vacations, buys all her clothes in thrift stores and never goes out to dine. She stays home and counts her money. Is she greedy?

Now to the last friend. Probably worth $10 million or so. He made some decent money and inherited the rest. Both he and his wife grew up in upper income families. He works hard and parties hard. They own a huge home in metro Atlanta and a lake home which is larger than their primary home. They own three large vehicles even though there are only two drivers. They entertain frequently and take lavish vacations. Are they greedy?

You make an interesting point, Trader. The desire to achieve is certainly one of the tenets of the composition that makes up business owners. It is something they seek and is judged based on their money report card. However, what happens once that is achieved? Most go on to try and reach another goal. It's my feeling that greed is based on misplaced attachment. Attachment to something that is not what one really is looking for. It's a Buddhist belief as well. It's evident with persons who have any kind of misplaced attachment. So, if I had to answer your questions above, just based on the small bit of info you provided, I would say the least greedy would be your friend who is worth 50MM, since he has no attachment to anything materialistic. I think many people like him/her wind up becoming philanthropists because they did not find what they were looking through achievement of wealth.

Again, I never said "religious", I said people of faith. Care to cite an example of a faith based view that is morally wrong? It's like I said above, the fact that you think you are right on something doesn't mean that you are, especially if there are no absolutes and if there is no basis for your sense of morality.

I think many people of all faiths would argue that radical islamism is morally wrong even though they believe that they are acting morally right based on their beliefs.

The paradox of evolutionary theory - "why?" Science though, in time will probably dig that answer up, but I doubt that will happen in my lifetime. There are a lot of theories out there, which is why we build these big atom smashers and travel to mars to do research. There's no easy answer though.

Even with new discoveries, I bet the answer to what is greed will still be unanswered.