Customary Use and Our 30A Legacy

I call BS on being disrespectful no matter what side you are on. There is hypocrisy on both sides. CU wants to keep beaches open to the public yet are strongly opposed to a public pier. I see more disrespect, ridicule and shaming on the CU side. BFO's are opposed to government interfering with property rights yet the property rights they seek interfere with the common good. BFO's buildings already block our view of a beautiful natural resource and damage that resource by building on the sand dunes. Both sides are principled up the yin yang.

This thread regardless of intent has once again brought out the worst in all of us. If we don't figure out a way to compromise our principles then both sides will ruin the 30A legacy.

No, I call BS on your BS. Just kidding.

I observe a healthy mixture of emotions and opinion in your post. I have noticed that more than once you have brought up the public pier. Who was mainly against it? BFOs or others? And is it DOA?

Regarding blocked views and building on dunes, those issues are pretty much everywhere in the U.S., especially the gulf and eastern U.S. And I’m not necessarily disagreeing. But that fat lady has sung. Not much any of us can do now.

One important thing I’d like to bring up is about your comment, “Both sides are principled up the yin yang.” Personally I fully expect the U.S. Constitution (private property rights) to prevail over old English law (customary use).

Once again any rational person “sitting on a jury” would not be able to decipher the very arbitrary benchmarks for customary use:

1. Ancient.
How long is ancient? Without absolute quantification wouldn’t it be undefinable? How many real estate contracts are signed with an undefined time element? It wouldn’t hold up in court.

2. Reasonable.
Reasonable is probably the easiest to visualize. Letting ALL dogs on the beach ANYTIME, riding horses on the beach and nude sunbathing all seem reasonable. Yet those activities have been made illegal by the county. In a sense, the BCC “interrupted” those activities - only allowing those that promote tourism and the money it brings. Doesn’t seem fair to dog lovers, nudists and horseback riders if customary use is being argued.

3. Without interruption.
Most BFOs have been pushing back for a decade. How many times does a BFO have to “interrupt”. What is interruption? “Please relocate, this is private property.”?? Posting a sign?

4. Free from dispute
My goodness. Just look at threads on SoWal from over 12 years ago. A lot of dispute going on there (here). Or is the action of dispute defined by someone being arrested for trespassing? We’ve got that too.

In summary, the whole concept of customary use is very vague on its face. No UNBIASED person can come to a determination based on the above CU benchmarks. The Constitution is what holds this country together and the very vague concept of customary use, IMHO, is a direct attack on the Constitution.

Or to tie your comment in, our yin yang holds a much truer principle.

How can we turn the entire strip of 30A beaches into a State Park? Each Walton County resident could get a yearly pass included with their property taxes and the State would limit the number of beach visitors to the available resources (parking, bathrooms, etc)

Not sure what you mean by "How can we turn the entire strip of 30A beaches into a State Park?" You mean the (1) strip of existing government owned 30A beachfront? Or (2) all 17 miles of 30A private property? Either way not legal or do-able. But keep coming up with CU alternatives.

"We cannot accomplish the above and have 30A open with no density management and a free for all with no code enforcement, with tourists that feel entitled to park anywhere and end up destroying our fragile ecosystem. We already have huge infrastructure problems with 4 million tourists. What happens when we hit 6 million or 8 million?" Great questions for past and present Commissioners and the former Commissioner Larry Jones. So far Commissioners' answer is customary use of private property. At least the State Parks can charge the public for beach use, parking, and restrooms; plus Parks can restrict public alcohol, and pets. Private BFOs can't do any of those landward of the MHWL with CU.

"Last week the Destin log reported "HIGH FECAL POLLUTION" at Blue Mountain and Grayton Beaches. Guess we know where 4 million tourists are using the bathroom. Our coastal dune lakes are at the highest level of pollution in 20 years." Those are test results in naturally chlorinated salt water. The dune lakes and outfalls, where all the kids play in, with the beach fowl and fishes, are not even tested. What do you think that mostly fresh water is like while the outfalls are blocked? Yuk. Need to get Commissioners' do their duty to protect the public's heath and test Dune lakes and outfalls. They are already testing the adjacent beaches. Makes too much sense I guess.

Not sure what you mean by "How can we turn the entire strip of 30A beaches into a State Park?" You mean the (1) strip of existing government owned 30A beachfront? Or (2) all 17 miles of 30A private property? Either way not legal or do-able. But keep coming up with CU alternatives.

"We cannot accomplish the above and have 30A open with no density management and a free for all with no code enforcement, with tourists that feel entitled to park anywhere and end up destroying our fragile ecosystem. We already have huge infrastructure problems with 4 million tourists. What happens when we hit 6 million or 8 million?" Great questions for past and present Commissioners and the former Commissioner Larry Jones. So far Commissioners' answer is customary use of private property. At least the State Parks can charge the public for beach use, parking, and restrooms; plus Parks can restrict public alcohol, and pets. Private BFOs can't do any of those landward of the MHWL with CU.

"Last week the Destin log reported "HIGH FECAL POLLUTION" at Blue Mountain and Grayton Beaches. Guess we know where 4 million tourists are using the bathroom. Our coastal dune lakes are at the highest level of pollution in 20 years." Those are test results in naturally chlorinated salt water. The dune lakes and outfalls, where all the kids play in, with the beach fowl and fishes, are not even tested. What do you think that mostly fresh water is like while the outfalls are blocked? Yuk. Need to get Commissioners' do their duty to protect the public's heath and test Dune lakes and outfalls. They are already testing the adjacent beaches. Makes too much sense I guess.

The reason the Fecal Pollution is so high is because large homes that rent to large groups on the coastal dune lakes are still on septic. Grayton Beach, Gulf Trace, etc. Should be mandated that all homes on coastal dune lakes connect to sewer.

The reason the Fecal Pollution is so high is because large homes that rent to large groups on the coastal dune lakes are still on septic. Grayton Beach, Gulf Trace, etc. Should be mandated that all homes on coastal dune lakes connect to sewer.

Yes! A good use for TDC funds! 40% of funds are mandated for advertising. But te new law to allow certain counties to use more for infrastructure and and the new additional 1 cent tax in Walton County should take care of it.

I wish there had been a proposal for the Triumph (Oil spill) program funds.

septic tanks and feces

At least the State Parks can charge the public for beach use, parking, and restrooms; plus Parks can restrict public alcohol, and pets. Private BFOs can't do any of those landward of the MHWL with CU.

And they can close the gates to cars when parking is full. Walton County TDC just keeps on sayin’, “Come on down, the water’s fine!” And tourists park everywhere, much where they shouldn’t. And the public beaches get more crowded. At least the state parks are self-regulating as to prevent over utilization.

According to one of the Plaintiff Lawyers , the issue of forced occupation of private property against the will of the property owner (chairs on private property) could be in the courts for the next 10 years. What about some short term solutions that don’t violate current Florida laws or the US Constitution until the courts decide differently?

Seems like there is very common ground to do something more about Chair Vendors, in particular on Regional Beach Accesses (public beaches).

Some say cancel the service totally. Some argue there are elderly and paying tourists that add to our tax base that need or desire this service. What about, just between Memorial Day and Labor Day, only the TDC can provide chairs and umbrellas at Regional Beach Accesses and no chair service (Vendor or TDC) at Neighborhood Beach Accesses? The rentals would be provided by the hour with a maximum time limit (3 hours? 4 hours?) and only by an attendant on location at each Regional Beach Access. Once the tourist paid, the attendant would place the chair and umbrella no closer than 15’ to the waters edge (per County Ordinance) and remove them when the time has expired or the guest leave. Also, most importantly, limit the number of chairs at each Regional Beach (40? 50? 60?). Once they rented out, no additional chairs are available for rent until someone leaves. Make the number of rentals available WAY LESS than 50% of the available public beach. Have an a limited edition design on the chairs with the year and sell them at the end of the season and all funds from chair sales get donated to the Turtle Watch program. That way there are no ghost chairs, and during high season there is a paid TDC rep on site to monitor conflict and call for assistance if needed.. More seasonal jobs for our local young people, similar to the lifeguards that are hired for the summer. Plus by selling the limited edition chairs at the end of the summer there are no storage costs or maintenance costs and we are helping the turtles

Chair Vendors would still service private property areas so we are not putting them out of business. It is just the Regional Beach Access not available to them from Memorial Day to Labor Day. And as some argue, we don't owe it to anyone to provide a for profit business on Public Beach Property. Doesn't matter if it is a Chair Service or a Beach Bar.

There was a time that the TDC was selective about advertising. Unfortunately that seems to have gone out the window when the State kind of made Walton TDC start donating to Visit Florida, the State tourism folks. I could be wrong though.

Great read for those who believe in the US Constitution; THE highest American law of the land, and beaches, that rejects many of the archaic English aristocratic customs a Revolutionary War was fought over.
Who Owns America's Beaches? - Sword & Scales spring 2019 | Pacific Legal Foundation

PLF tells it like it is unlike some surfer dudes. Founded in Pacific California History | Pacific Legal Foundation Maybe we need a FL Panhandle PLF location!
CA where public population demands have long exceeded desirable privately owned beach supply and "progressive" governmental policies run amok. The future local politics of Walton beaches? Wonder if California has ever claimed customary use of private coastal property and prevailed? Surely if CU could prevail anywhere, CA is the place.
PLF have an unmatched US Supreme Court track record unlike some surfer dudes. 11 Wins at the Supreme Court | Pacific Legal Foundation
PLF helped local property rights attorneys prevailed in litigation even here in Walton County. Florida ends Walton County's unconstitutional land grab | Pacific Legal Foundation

I hope some of the surfer dudes "shared" private-beach property access misinformation is posted so the light of facts and truth can be shown on the surfer beliefs and credibility.
Property Rights | Pacific Legal Foundation
Donate | Pacific Legal Foundation

Dave Rauschkolb why do you believe you are right about CU and private property rights and everyone else is wrong?

If you can not or refuse to answer these simple questions I'd say BFOs are right (within the laws and American morality encompassed in those laws) and more credible with facts or prove BFOs property rights wrong with credible verifiable information. Not baseless rhetoric, cute signs, and shout downs that You're Wrong and despicable.

Still no CU answers to any questions asked on this thread or evidence/facts property right positions are wrong and CU positions are right.

According to one of the Plaintiff Lawyers , the issue of forced occupation of private property against the will of the property owner (chairs on private property) could be in the courts for the next 10 years. What about some short term solutions that don’t violate current Florida laws or the US Constitution until the courts decide differently?

Lord help us! 10 more years of Rauschkolb and Uhlfelder and their antics, intentional mistruths, degrading of BFOs with Nazi analogies and staged trespassing?

At least you are trying to come up with some ideas and it’s very much appreciated, at least on my part. A much much simpler solution is to BAN vending on public beaches, period. I don’t think tourism will suffer AT ALL And the public accesses remain that - truly public, not controlled by beach vendors in any way. And then there’s nothing to enforce except NO VENDING ON PUBLIC BEACHES..... no ghost setups, no 50% malarkey, no within 15 feet of the water line OR dune, no nothing. Again much simpler and much easier to enforce.

BCC needs to take notice as I sense even “my enemies” are in agreement on this point.

Still no CU answers to any questions asked on this thread or evidence/facts property right positions are wrong and CU positions are right.

PLEASE please don’t hold your breath too long. Don’t want to lose another very credible source of information.

PLEASE please don’t hold your breath too long. Don’t want to lose another very credible source of information.

Ya, I don't get the statements about evil, greedy, sneaky BFOs, protecting Constitutionally protected property rights, trying "yet another desperate tactic to silence the voices of ordinary beachgoers". Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy

When asked to come out in an relatively open forum to take positions already taken in public with facts, not rhetoric and shout downs? Nothing! Guess when you think you are right in the darkness of the closed antisocial media Facebook forums and you repeat what you believe enough times, you just believe CU of private property using an archaic English legal doctrine is right. The question is why? What alternative facts are there to dispute the property right facts on this thread and to warrant spending many many millions of Walton tax payer's dollars?

I guess if you can't stand the Sunshine of the facts ... "If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell" Carl Sandburg.
Medical Daily. When Arguing, People Who Can't Use Facts Use Morals
"Overall, these findings show how strong bias can be in the face of facts, and suggest the ways in which political and ideological polarization occurs. “We’ve learned that bias is a disease, and to fight it we need a healthy treatment of facts and education,” the researchers wrote. “We find that when facts are injected into the conversation, the symptoms of bias become less severe. But unfortunately, we’ve also learned the facts can only do so much."
Source: Friesen J, Campbell T, Kay A. The Psychological Advantage of Unfalsifiability: The Appeal of Untestable Religious and Political Ideologies. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. 2015.

Or just pretend the facts are not there and stay in the closed antisocial media "echo chamber". No CU credibility.

The Walton Commissioners lit the flame of public customary use of private property firestorm as far back as 2007. BFOs connected the Commissioner's CU dots over the years. FBFA and antisocial media have fanned the flames since 2016, not based on the Constitution but a strategy that might makes right! Right? "Sorry if you folks [property rights advocates] feel overwhelmed with sentiment towards customary use; more people just believe what we believe; that will always be the case." Based on what!? Because you read it on an internet slide, shown to be wrong on this thread, from a bizarre CU provocateur (and I'm being nice)?

If there was any question that Believers of public customary use of private property really want to find alternatives to litigation with beach enforcement; the Commissioners already have a duty to all Walton citizens to do, "...no one is going to stop us from using whatever legal means to that end [CU]." As long as it's tax payer's money. Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
OK with Defendant BFOs if litigation is what it takes. If BFOs prevail the Walton tax payer may be paying both sides for Commissioners' and CUers beliefs.

I'm almost glad FBFA is intervening in Commissioners' litigation against 4,671 BFOs. I'm sure the FBFA attorney will be a huge help, if his beach antics and heritage rhetoric are any indication, in the legal proceedings to Walton's $425/hour attorney Theriaque (said sarcastically). CUnCourt.

Lord help us! 10 more years of Rauschkolb and Uhlfelder and their antics, intentional mistruths, degrading of BFOs with Nazi analogies and staged trespassing?

At least you are trying to come up with some ideas and it’s very much appreciated, at least on my part. A much much simpler solution is to BAN vending on public beaches, period. I don’t think tourism will suffer AT ALL And the public accesses remain that - truly public, not controlled by beach vendors in any way. And then there’s nothing to enforce except NO VENDING ON PUBLIC BEACHES..... no ghost setups, no 50% malarkey, no within 15 feet of the water line OR dune, no nothing. Again much simpler and much easier to enforce.

BCC needs to take notice as I sense even “my enemies” are in agreement on this point.

Ruh roh. You and Rauschkolb agree 8n vendors.

Holy cow!!! (since I bought near a cow pasture and must expect cows on my property per Dave Rauschkolb). This pretty well explains the psychology behind all the madness of CU “justification” (link of the previous post by @FloridaBeachBum - yet another excellent post).

“For their study, the researchers conducted four experiments in which the first two tested how challenging a person’s beliefs had them arguing in untestable ways. One of them, for example, involved showing 174 participants who either opposed or supported same-sex marriage supposed facts that either bolstered or refuted their opinions. When they were shown facts that opposed their views, regardless of their stance, they were more likely to say it wasn’t about the facts but rather about their own moral opinions. They were also more likely to say their opinions were based on fact rather than morals when the statements supported their beliefs. “In other words, we observed something beyond the denial of particular facts: We observed a denial of the relevance of facts,” the researchers wrote.”

Customary Use “support” is a situation that 100% corroborates “denial of the relevance of facts”.

Customary Use “support” is a situation that 100% corroborates “denial of the relevance of facts”.

And the researchers should have thrown in juvenile responses as well - evidenced above.

After 700+ comments in this community forum of locals, one thing seems clear. The CU argument has no basis for legitimacy other than entitlement emotion by those not owning beach property. The county has failed to support the onslaught of tourists they've attracted. The county has failed to control near beach and off beach beds buildout. The laws and history of county endorsed private beach property ownership have been proven here. The myths of Quiet title, beach taxation, public beach turned private, HB631 falsehoods, have all been proved false here. Not one CU advocate/activist/agitator has contributed anything to the contrary. Yes, they have repeated socialist mantras; the beach belongs to everyone, its greedy to say you own the beach, why can't you just share, etc...
After all has been said, It would seem the court will follow the same path as this thread. CU has no Chance of winning. However..... as Reggie predicted, and you can see now every day, the loud antics of some unethical CU players will guarantee that -
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy

Both arms and a leg were fractured when he ejected from the aircraft, as McCain was shot down by a missile during the Vietnam War. He nearly drowned after parachuting into a lake. After being pulled ashore, the enemy crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt and bayoneted him.

Have you ever had a broken bone?

Although severely injured, his captors refused to treat him. They beat and interrogated him to get information. Eventually he was given marginal medical care after learning his dad was a US Admiral. During the 6 weeks in the minimum care hospital, he lost 50 pounds while in a chest cast and his hair turned white.

He was then shackled and thrown into dark cells in North Vietnam in extremely harsh conditions, including 2 YEARS of solitary confinement. He was subjected to a program of severe torture, bound and beaten every two hours, while also suffering from severe dysentery. Additional injuries brought McCain to the desperate point of suicide, but his "preparations were interrupted by guards". Sadly, 20% of his fellow tortured POWs died in captivity. McCain continued to receive two to three weekly beatings because of his refusal to sign additional statements of confession.

After 5 1/2 YEARS of this tortured imprisonment, he was released. His injuries left him permanently unable to raise his arms over his head.

McCain died of brain cancer last August at age 81.

Have you never lost a loved one? How do you want to be publicly portrayed after you are gone?

Politics aside, McCain's widowed wife, 7 children, and all his grandchildren are all able to view your distasteful public display of such disgusting desrespect for humanity itself.

Is this what we have become in our local community?
Distasteful memes, not only allowed, but actually welcomed by the site administrators? As a cheap substitute for the complete lack of honest, insightful, rational, factual, civil discourse?
...All because of one's self-proclaimed entitlement to sunbathe on a particular spot on the beach?

Reggie was right.
Customary Use will destroy our 30A legacy.

When logged in. Under the post someone might "Report" the posts - again. SoWal Terms of Use 3.2 (a) Be courteous. ... will not post repetitive messages, meaningless messages or "spam."
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy

The repetitive disrespectful meaningless posts have been reported before but maybe if someone other than a beach property rights advocate reports the clear alleged Terms of Use violation something would be considered to remove and prevent future alleged 3.2(a) violations.

Just another example of CU in-credibility, shout-down, a manipulated image rated "Winner" by some, done out of spite regardless of the disrespect to a deceased decorated military POW and US patriot; and not discouraged by the forum.

When logged in. Under the post someone might "Report" the posts - again. SoWal Terms of Use 3.2 (a) Be courteous. ... will not post repetitive messages, meaningless messages or "spam."
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy

The repetitive disrespectful meaningless posts have been reported before but maybe if someone other than a beach property rights advocate reports the clear alleged Terms of Use violation something would be considered to remove and prevent future alleged 3.2(a) violations.

Just another example of CU in-credibility shout-down, rated "Winner" by some, done out of spite regardless of the disrespect to a deceased decorated military POW and US patriot; and not discouraged by the forum.

I posted the meme which basically points out what a vile person Trump is for insulting McCain repeatedly after McCain was deceased. The administrators deleted them, banned me temporarily, and called me a troll. What else would want them to do? Get off your high horse.

When logged in. Under the post someone might "Report" the posts - again. SoWal Terms of Use 3.2 (a) Be courteous. ... will not post repetitive messages, meaningless messages or "spam."
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy

The repetitive disrespectful meaningless posts have been reported before but maybe if someone other than a beach property rights advocate reports the clear alleged Terms of Use violation something would be considered to remove and prevent future alleged 3.2(a) violations.

Just another example of CU in-credibility shout-down, rated "Winner" by some, done out of spite regardless of the disrespect to a deceased decorated military POW and US patriot; and not discouraged by the forum.

The last paragraph makes this possibly the whiniest most willfully ignorant post I have read. The meme depicts your president* repeatedly engaging in a losing argument with a deceased war hero which is based on fact.

I posted the meme which basically points out what a vile person Trump is for insulting McCain repeatedly after McCain was deceased. The administrators deleted them, banned me temporarily, and called me a troll. What else would want them to do? Get off your high horse.

Manipulated grave photo still posted but good to know, if you say so, I don't put much credibility in your posts.

The last paragraph makes this possibly the whiniest most willfully ignorant post I have read. The meme depicts your president* repeatedly engaging in a losing argument with a deceased war hero which is based on fact.

Manipulated grave photo still posted. Nothing to do with private property rights or public customary use of private property rights and done out of spite. In-credible and not worthy of your CU position as someone else once said. Facts, not shout-downs and insults please.

Very presumptuous which Presidential candidate I voted for; regardless it is our President in office, even if Republican or Democrat. Don't like it vote em out. Just like the Walton Commissioners.

Manipulated grave photo still posted but good to know, if you say so, I don't put much credibility in your posts.

It doesn’t take much common sense to know that meme is making fun of Trump. If it insinuates that a bunch of you are bloviating, I guess that’s just gravy.

Manipulated grave photo still posted. Nothing to do with private property rights or public customary use of private property rights and done out of spite. In-credible and not worthy of your CU position as someone else once said. Facts, not shout-downs and insults please.

Very presumptuous which Presidential candidate I voted for; regardless it is our President in office, even if Republican or Democrat. Don't like it vote em out. Just like the Walton Commissioners.

Simply clueless. Maybe I should post a beating dead horse meme.