Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy

Discussion in 'Local Government and Groups' started by Reggie Gaskins, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. Auburn Fan

    Auburn Fan Beach Comber

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    Because "across the street" aren't "real neighbors", but actually greedy developers and realtors making astronomic profits by sending their customers to private property, ruining the ancient beach experience for the local residents, and convincing the local residents that the beach property owners are the problem.

    Short term rental restriction reform is the answer for our community. But there is so much very big money against it.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 7:47 AM
  2. Auburn Fan

    Auburn Fan Beach Comber

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    The same reason the Muscogee Nation doesn't have access to your deeded property and you don't have access to theirs. This is the United States of America, a civil nation with a constitution. We uphold and support private property ownership. Check out the 5th amendment.

    The Ancient Muscogee tribes did not originally have written laws, and they were not even nation. In fact they didn't have anything written.

    Also, native Americans lived by necessity near sources of freshwater. They primarily fished rivers and bays due to the relative and practical ease and abundance compared to fighting the waves. They were not maritime-oriented. Their crude water going vessels were not very suitable for the gulf. They did not build sail boats.They did not sunbathe. My ancestors are native American and I am extremely proud of many aspects of their culture and history. But let's not try to rewrite it.

    Their ancient culture didn't have written language and they did not have deeds to property ownership. You and I are citizens of the United States. We do have deeds and recognize the rights of property ownership. In fact it's one of the cornerstones of the TRUE "customary use" of lands of our nation.

    The native Americans did not build a string of micro hotel/homes behind private property and attempt to conduct commerce sending hordes of their customers to enjoy someone else's private property. The native Americans didn't build restaurants and conduct commerce on the beaches. Ancient Native Americans were not commercially oriented at all.

    In America, private citizens should have the right to own private property, and be protected from the tyranny of majority rule, fueled by a propaganda machine instigated by greedy developers and realtors who wish to make billions of dollars by conducting commerce using the real estate deeded to those private citizens. THAT IS SO VERY FAR FROM NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE I cannot believe we are still even discussing this. Utterly preposterous.

    Our constitutional "CUSTOM" of recognizing deeds so trumps any fabricated hollywood "custom" of ancient Indians "recreating" on a beach.

    The problem with socialistic customary use is eventually you run out of other people's private beaches.

    I am against forced occupation of deeded private property, both yours and mine. And you should be too, if you stop and really think about it.
     
  3. mputnal

    mputnal Beach Fanatic

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    If CU is upheld by the court system then why wouldn't Native Americans have a right to use/occupy ALL native lands that were taken away from them? Where was the activism to help Sitting Bull and all other tribes? If CU is the law then how do we explain the theft of Native American land including beaches? I know the answer but something to think about right? This is the reason why there is not a right and wrong side here. Both sides are right. Both sides are wrong. It is just a matter of perspective. Our history is not all good no matter what side you are on. I think both sides of this issue in Walton County need to step back from their sacred principles and ask themselves about why we assume so much privilege. We all work hard. We all deserve to enjoy the beach. Why not just do the right thing?
     
  4. Auburn Fan

    Auburn Fan Beach Comber

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    Legally removing someone's constitutional rights is what this IS about. You do understand the county is suing thousands of beach property owners, right? With your tax dollars.

    Whether or not any of those property owners generously welcome guests on their property is a completely separate issue, with a multitude of varied and site-specific circumstances.

    Some principles are indeed sacred.
     
  5. L.C. Bane

    L.C. Bane Beach Fanatic

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    Since you disagree with the Muscogee Nation, perhaps your debate should be held with them. I encourage you to enlighten them on their their culture and history so they can better understand it.
     
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  6. Poppaj

    Poppaj Beach Fanatic

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    Native Americans needed no legal documents to use the land for generations just as beach goers needed no legal documents for generations to enjoy the sand. Neither group felt they had or needed exclusive ownership.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 10:11 AM
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  7. Auburn Fan

    Auburn Fan Beach Comber

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    The notion of "Customary Use" is a CONCEPT.
    Protection of property rights is a PRINCIPLE.
     
  8. FloridaBeachBum

    FloridaBeachBum Beach Fanatic

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    LC, I accept your challenge. But we need some ground rules.
    First, LIST and DEFINE the ancient English common law doctrine of custom criteria to have a valid claim of private property customary use that will be debated. Let me help you list the historical criteria; here is Dave Theriaque's, Walton's lead $425/hr land use attorney, list he cited last year 2018. Suggest you review British Sir William Blackstone's mid-1700s Commentaries as well. Or you can get FBFA attorney Ulhfelder to help you define the historical common law customary use criteria.
    2018 Theriaque CU Criteria.jpg
    Note, Custom is a background principle of Oregon, NOT Florida.

    Second LIST and DEFINE the customary recreational uses of the Walton private beaches the Muscogee Nation of Florida will claim. Surfing included?

    Third, list an impartial panel of 3 jurors. Might check somewhere in Siberia. If any one of the multiple customary use criteria can not be shown to satisfy, by a preponderance of the evidence, the claim of fee simple private property customary use -- it is defeated.

    Forth, if you understand the old English doctrine of custom history and law, even if the Muscogee Nation of Florida prevails in the debate, only the Muscogee's are entitled to customary use of private property and only for the uses defined; excluding all non-Native American Mascogee people, including you, Dave Rauschkolb, Daniel Ulhfelder, and 99.9999999999% of the world's population - except maybe 2020 Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren.

    You can get Dave Rasuchkolb to help you if you want too. If you dispute this information please be specific of your alternative(?) facts. I await your customary use criteria and use definitions with bated breath.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 12:40 PM
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  9. FloridaBeachBum

    FloridaBeachBum Beach Fanatic

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    Dave, the point of the question was - you took at face value C.G. slide and presented to the public at the FBFA "informational meeting" Vizcaya private property has EVER (since US land patents) been legally public property?
    Customary Use Will Destroy Our 30A Legacy
    C.G. has ZERO credibility. You defined his FB posts as "bizarre". You presented C.G. misinformation to the public without fact checking it? Attorney Daniel Ulhfelder was at this FBFA meeting. He didn't fact check the legal claim of slide? If not does not give you or Ulhfelder much credibility either. Prove me wrong with alternative facts, not misdirection, or emotional shout downs please.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 12:45 PM
  10. Jimmy T

    Jimmy T Beach Fanatic

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  11. Dave Rauschkolb

    Dave Rauschkolb Beach Fanatic

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    No, I didn’t take the slide at face value. That is what those of us who support customary use believe. That the beach is depicted were public use beaches until July 1, 2018 when house bill 631 went into effect. That is at the core of this conflict. You folks believe that those are private beaches and you may exclude us from those beaches and we believe completely the opposite that since people began using the beaches they were shared. So I believe those images to be true and correct and that is a matter of opinion that most people agree with. The judges will decide. Tou just saying it doesn’t make it true. Anymore than you believe me just saying what I believe makes it true. See you in court.
     
  12. L.C. Bane

    L.C. Bane Beach Fanatic

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    FBB, I hope you didn't pass out holding your breath waiting for a response. I thought you'd be headed up to Bruce, not assigning me homework. That's what the attorneys get paid to do. How the hell am I suppose to know what the Muscogee Nation will claim? Go ask them yourself.

    H.B. 631 defines the path. Why don't you acknowledge that?
     
  13. FloridaBeachBum

    FloridaBeachBum Beach Fanatic

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    Except I posted publicly available legal title documents (facts) to support my informed opinion that Vizcaya (all Walton private property without granted easements) private property rights has NEVER had a court determined public interest included and you just believe it did since 2009? Believe WHY? Repeating you believe it over and over again does not change the legal title of the private property and misinforms the public and property owners. That is not responsible credible public discourse.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 1:03 PM
  14. FloridaBeachBum

    FloridaBeachBum Beach Fanatic

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    Your Mascogee Nation challenge! Formal debates need a subject and ground rules. I helped you with the customary use criteria list. No didn't expect you to know about the historical doctrine of customary use or have an informed response. Anyone else interested in setting up ground rules for LCB Muscogee challenge? Will do it online so everyone can read at their leisure.

    HB631, FL Statute 163.035, was required by a super majority of the FL legislators because local governments could not answer the questions in Constitutional protected due process FIRST either. Acknowledged. CUnCourt.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 12:58 PM
  15. BlueMtnBeachVagrant

    BlueMtnBeachVagrant Beach Fanatic

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    WTF?

    Dave R actually quoted one of my posts? I thought he blocked me or something.

    I was being a tad sarcastic, no a lot sarcastic, that LCBane can’t find a little humor with the question of whether the Muscogees play chess because this all is just (again sarcastcally) “too serious” as in taking one’s self too serious to find humor in anything. Remember LCBane brought the chess analogy up first. Obviously my sense of humor is different than his/hers.

    Getting back to Devious Dave’s claim that the beach in front of Vizcaya was public before HB631 is technically correct, I believe. The entire 26 miles was public. But the time it was public was very SHORT LIVED because of the illegal customary use proclamation made by the county that was RIGHTFULLY struck down by the state of Florida because of the judicial requirement.

    Soooo, at the time the slide was being shown, Dave and Daniel could actually mislead their followers with a straight face to all those willing to drink the mai-tais.

    And Auburn Fan, your post regarding the Muscogees was beautifully written.
     
  16. Dave Rauschkolb

    Dave Rauschkolb Beach Fanatic

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    You can post documents until you’re blue in the face. People have been using those beaches together for eons. It really boils down to that you may own the beach but you can’t keep us off of it. And in the end When either a ruling comes from a judge or the people of Florida decide you won’t be able to.
     
  17. FactorFiction

    FactorFiction Beach Fanatic

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    Interesting info and entertaining comments. Couldn't choose just one emoticon!
     
  18. BlueMtnBeachVagrant

    BlueMtnBeachVagrant Beach Fanatic

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    Getting back to Native Americans, heck, I also brought it up a few years ago.

    Public vs Private Beach [threads merged]
    Danny Glidewell graciously (and humorously I might add) chimed in.

    After reading that post, I saw a comment that Mark Davis, our previous County attorney, made back then...that some of the beach could be shown to have customary use and other parts not. I thought Mark Davis was Sidney Noyes’ “mentor” before he handed her the reigns. I guess she doesn’t agree. And as mentioned in a previous post on this thread, many BFOs want to sever their cases but the county is fighting that, in essence lumping all parcels into one big case. I guess Theriaque knows what he’s doing.
     
  19. BlueMtnBeachVagrant

    BlueMtnBeachVagrant Beach Fanatic

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    More denial of facts via emotional shutdown. Sad as that is the only comeback. Yeah, in the same “infamous” Nazi card townhall meeting, I remember one man spoke at the podium with such enthusiasm that he had proof positive that the beach in front of Vizcaya was public. He offered Larry Jones some documents to substantiate his claim. Anyone wanna make a bet it was nothing burger?

    Emotion is the only reason why Vizcaya is constantly being targeted. Yes, I condemn the heated way Hackmeyer treated some trespassers way back when as most decent people probably would. But this beach slide of Vizcaya we’re talking about is more of the same. The fact that Daniel Uhlfelder goes down to Vizcaya and stir up more trouble requiring the Sheriff’s dept to waste time with his antics was definitely driven by retaliatory emotion as the majority of private beach is exactly the same as Vizcaya. IOW, Uhlfelder could have chosen a beach much closer to his home...heck next door to him at Seaside to make his point.

    You guys keep attacking Vizcaya for obvious reasons. And when FBB takes the time to present documents and such to support that Vizcaya is a private beach, you ..... oh well.

    So Dave, I’ve condemned Hackmeyer. Still waiting for your response about the Nazi card. Or again just say it never happened and I’ll drop it, unless that ends up not being the case.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019 at 3:45 PM
  20. Lake View Too

    Lake View Too SoWal Insider

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