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SHELLY

SoWal Insider
Jun 13, 2005
5,763
803
Goofer...

I think you are right about the possibility that there may soon be a buying opportunity in some stocks. But I don't think that includes JOE. This company is totally premised on using their land for development. There is a huge inventory overhang in Florida currently (and particularly Bay County where JOE has a lot of property), which will take some time to work off. Given tightened mortgage hurdles, higher rates, and the uncertainty surrounding the sub-prime, Alt, etc mortgages, this stock is not going anywhere soon.

I am not ragging you about JOE going under $40, but you said this was very unlikely. Look at the chart, there is distribution big time. You'd be a better buyer at 31.

Some food for thought on JOE from David Einhorn of Greenlight Capital (circa August 7, 2007)

David Einhorn, Greenlight Capital on St. Joes Corp.


The per acre analyses used by most St. Joe bulls exclude selling expenses and taxes. I believe that the equivalent gross value to the $9,000 an acre used in your analysis is the equivalent of $18,000 an acre, when taking expenses and taxes into account.

As it was, I did not quantify any amount of swampland at the Ira Sohn conference. I simply noted that some of the land is swampland. The weather is much worse than South Florida (just as hot in the summer and cooler in the winter), there are a lot of mosquitoes, there is not a lot to do, and the demographics are poor. I noted that I thought St. Joe overplayed the value of land within ten miles of the ocean and noted that I thought that vacationers would prefer to be "on the ocean." More than a mile is too far for many families to walk to the beach. Finally, I thought the airport development is the type of story often seen in promotional stocks designed to buy years of time to encourage the market to ignore current financial results. The current airport does not operate near capacity. Airports in Jacksonville an Ft. Myers did not spur a lot of development next to their airports and it is odd the St. Joe seems to believe that a lot of people will want to live near the airport, as if that is a residential attraction.

As I pointed out in my speech, since 2001, St. Joe has sold 268,000 acres at an average price of under $2,000 an acre. Since my speech, St. Joe announced another quarter where they sold over 30,000 additional acres at $1,500 an acre. As such, I don't see that it is very challenging to determine a value for most of St. Joe's land. Assuming they haven't sold the most salable stuff first, it appears that undeveloped land is worth on average sub $2,000 an acre before expenses.

I believe that about 680,000 of the remaining 739,000 acres are similarly undeveloped. Assuming St. Joe has no un-salable tracts of swampland and all the undeveloped land could be sold for $2,000 an acre, it would be worth $1.36 billion gross or about $700 million after selling expenses and taxes.

St Joe has just under 20,000 acres in development (some of which has already been sold). They have an additional 21,000 acres "In Pre-Development", meaning they have land use entitlements, but they are still evaluating the development or need additional permits. They have another 10,000 acres they are planning to entitle.

The developed projects have a book value of $800 million. St. Joe is not making good margins on selling developed property. Residential and commercial land sales have not covered its overhead in any quarter since 2005, when it was still in the homebuilding business. St. Joe is one of very few companies that has spent large amounts on residential development and has not taken any impairment in the current environment. To give St. Joe the benefit of the doubt, let's say the developments could be worth 1.5x book or $1.2 billion.

On that analysis St. Joe is worth $1.9 billion. Subtract $400 million of debt, leaves $1.5 billion of equity or $20 per share. I believe that adding in the time value of money would take this analysis down to the $15 number I used at the conference.

Regards,
de
 

Mango

SoWal Insider
Apr 7, 2006
9,699
1,368
New York/ Santa Rosa Beach
Yes, the houses are sad that they were built and are now sitting empty. They yearn for the pitter patter of little feet and joyous celebration like their "friends" in other established neighborhoods have. Houses have feelings too. Maybe what the market needs is really medical help, not financial :rotfl: :leaving:

:lolabove: House Prozac? :dunno: :wave:
 

robertsondavies

Beach Fanatic
Apr 16, 2006
500
28
I've been quite bearish on JOE, but lose a bit of respect for Einhorn (the vaunted Einhorn) after reading his self - interested post lowballing the valuation on JOE... Einhorn, the smartest guy in the room, was as LONG subprime mortgage lenders as anyone... and at times I'm told can be dismissive and arrogant ; I've been on conference calls with him, where in 2005 he was dismissing bearish views on New Century and Accredited H L, as so idiotic and novice as to be laughable... I'll admit he was very much the right way on that trade for a while, but i don't think that he'll admit that - in the end - it was he, D. E. the great, who absolutely called it wrong in the largest sense, despite trading it right for a while while riding mo'.

It's because of guys like Einhorn, who don't understand the panhandle, as most New Yorkers (not all of course) don't get it... that there will be an opportunity to buy JOE soon. I'm encouraged that D.E. the great is short. I like to have some healthy "built-in" covering demand for stocks I'm considering buying, and hope these New Yorkers push this JOE down real real low. sub 25 would be great, but I'll probably not wait that long to start buying.
 

goofer

Beach Fanatic
Feb 21, 2005
1,165
191
Robert

I think you should know that I am a born and bred New yorker. I moved to Sedona in 2004 and bought my building lot in Watersound in 2002. But I will always be a New Yorker. I tell you this in the interest of full disclosure because this is one New yorker who thinks JOE is a great long term holding. I may be foolish in starting my position at 40 but I only bought 500 shares....my next buy point will be at 36 amd so on until it gets to 30, if ever. I am not smart enough to know when the bottom is in JOE or the mkt in general ,but I believe there is value now in JOE as well as the money center banks. There is so much volatility in the stock market now that some great opportunities are, and have been created...and for all anyone knows things could get worse BUT NO ONE KNOWS. But I am very comgortable buying beaten down great companies now. AIG C BAC CB COP GE HAL MO as well as other blue chips, all got clobbered in the last 10 days. I think it was because of the need of hedge funds and other entities to raise cash to meet margin calls and the big uglies are very liquid and easy to sell. You saw that on Thursday and Friday when GE finally got hit. The worst may be over BUT JOE, LOW, HD and MAS are the only housing related companies I would buy now. :dunno:
 

drsvelte

Beach Fanatic
Jul 12, 2005
305
3
Sandestin & Red Stick
Obviously, Einhorns' "analysis" is completely self-serving and what one would expect of a short. I think JOE has more long-term value than he does. But this won't be viable for some time; maybe not 'till 2010 or so. So you do need to discount back to PV. The 2001-2002 price, prior to the liquidity boom in the 23-29 range would be a good buy.
 

SHELLY

SoWal Insider
Jun 13, 2005
5,763
803
The absence of infrastructure (roads, water, sewer, power) makes huge swatches of JOE land overvalued--even before considering the current falling prices for land.

IMO some folks are still clinging to the notion that real estate is a fantastic investment--much like some thought of tech as it slid down in 2000.

Tech has a chance of clawing its way back up again in time...but when the dust after the pop settles, real estate will revert back to normal--returning just over the rate of inflation.


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SHELLY

SoWal Insider
Jun 13, 2005
5,763
803
Robert

I tell you this in the interest of full disclosure because this is one New yorker who thinks JOE is a great long term holding. I may be foolish in starting my position at 40 but I only bought 500 shares....my next buy point will be at 36 amd so on until it gets to 30, if ever. :dunno:

Time for another Cup O' JOE at <35...<34...<33?

JOE has sold off all 17 of its office buildings (there goes that revenue down the tubes)--what are they going to sell for "income" next?

kinda reminds me of an old joke:

------------------------
A farmer walks into a bar with a three-legged pig. The bartender asks, "How come that pig's missing a leg?"

"Well," says the farmer, "there was a big fire. My house burned right down to the ground. My family and I all would have burned up with it if this pig hadn't come into the flaming, smoke-filled house and dragged each of us out, one by one."

"Wow," says the bartender, respectfully.

"Yep," says the farmer, "and you just don't eat a pig like that all at once."

-----------------



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robertsondavies

Beach Fanatic
Apr 16, 2006
500
28
so close to buying here... JOE is 33.85.. with 90 minutes to go in trading day.

i'd like to see it at 33.50 to start buying...

we don't yet know how tropical storm Dean is looking, but not all things are knowable.
 

robertsondavies

Beach Fanatic
Apr 16, 2006
500
28
I did buy some NLY this morning around 12.50... and took a flier on some IMH on the open as well.

so I am starting to shed my bearishness on real estate finally...

close to buying JOE.... but no trigger yet.
 
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