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Camp Creek Kid

Christini Zambini
Feb 20, 2005
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Seacrest Beach
No. That is exactly why Romney's so called "speech" on Religion avoided the topic of Mormanism altogether.


"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrine. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes President he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths."

Mitt Romney Dec. 6, 2007
 

hnooe

Beach Fanatic
Jul 21, 2007
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"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrine. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes President he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths."

Mitt Romney Dec. 6, 2007

Thanks. Good quote. That lets Romney and Obama off the hook...I say lets move on to the urgent issues in the Presidential race!
 

CPort

Beach Fanatic
Feb 15, 2007
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Can anyone say that they 100% agree and support every policy, tenet, and statement made by their chosen religion and religious leader? :dunno:
This is a good point scooterbug,I don't agree with everything my pastor says and believes,however, I do agree with the majority or I would change churches!
 

Teresa

SoWal Guide
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Can anyone say that they 100% agree and support every policy, tenet, and statement made by their chosen religion and religious leader? :dunno:

no. not me anyway. but I will never leave my catholic heritage/church. I do love it. It is a gift. religion does not define me as a person, in fact I'm not religious at all. But still a catholic! figure that one out!

Jesus said that we should hate the sin, but love the sinner. Obama merely said (eloquently, I might add) that he renounced the message, but loved the messenger, nonetheless. :blush:
MC: thank you for this post.
 

rapunzel

Beach Fanatic
Nov 30, 2005
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Point Washington
I reminded Skunky yesterday of the that time about five years ago when he was pretty much in Obama's shoes.

We went to a wonderful old downtown church in Shreveport, Louisiana. It was called Holy Cross, and was led by Fr. Kenneth Paul. The church was the oldest Episcopal Church in Shreveport, but a new Cathedral had replaced it and all the hoity-toity people attended the cathedral. That left Holy Cross with the most beautiful building (it has real Tiffany stained glass and a mural of priests who came to help with the yellow fever epidemic in the 1850's and died there) and was very small, with an eclectic group of attendees. The church had wonderful ministries, and there was a great program for the homeless. Fr. Paul was a spectacular pastor, well-educated and insightful...he'd gone to Oxford but would also mention his "trashy" beginnings in Alexandria, Louisiana, and often made jokes about his mother's bad girl reputation. We loved him.

He was also a bit of a liberal. He allowed an openly gay member to read the Prayers of the People, he went out with the black ministers of the city to protest the shooting of a young man who didn't drop his cell phone when confronted by the cops. And when it became clear that the U.S. was about to go to war with Iraq, Fr. Paul sent his wife Virginia on a fact-finding mission to Iraq. The group visited schools an hospitals, and she had pictures of Baghdad that looked like they could have been taken in Shreveport. She spoke out against the propaganda of the Administration. Fr. Paul publicly opposed the war from the pulpit and would pray for the President to have the wisdom to change course.

At the time, Skunky fully supported the President and thought I was crazy to oppose the war so adamantly. He patted me on the head as though I was a mischievous child. He'd squirm in his seat when Fr. Paul went into one of his anti-war rants, or said unkind things about the administration. It didn't change his love and respect for Fr. Paul, and he never once suggested we leave the church. I suspect Skunky thought of Fr. Paul as the crazy uncle whose good far outweighed the bad. He may have thought Fr. Paul's comments were unpatriotic. I always saw him as the biggest patriot I knew. He said what he believed, even when it was unpopular. And believe me, Bush and his war with Iraq were incredibly popular in Shreveport. This town had a big party and had everyone bring their Dixie Chicks cd's and they ran over them with a steamroller. In a time when pastors are so tuned in to the political, Fr. Paul was inspirational.

Sometimes, extreme rhetoric is used in ways we can't approve of -- especially when we take it out of it's context. I'm sure if Skunky had seen Fr. Paul calling Donald Rumsfeld a traitor to all this country holds dear on TV before we had attended the church, he would have refused to go. But we'd attended the church, become involved in that community, we knew what a truly good man Fr. Paul was, and how he worked to serve the least among us, even if some ladies changed churches because they didn't want to share the cup of Christ with a gay man or a black person or an alcoholic.

I am proud of Skunky because he looked past the venom in some of Fr. Paul's words to see the experiences and love that prompted him to speak those words. It was easy for me, I agreed with many of the sentiments. Skunky didn't, but still loved the man who would have a blessing of the animals and thought it important that Ellie and Patrick receive the Lord every year at the Feast of St. Francis. I don't know that I would have been as tolerant had the shoe been on the other foot.

A great religious leader SHOULD challenge us. He should question authority. And if we all decided to leave our churches if they said things we didn't agree with on occasion, the church experience in this country would be shallow indeed.

CCK, I have to say that I'm a little disappointed by your comments. I understand you to say that religion is only theology, not the works of church. If it's not okay to question the tenets of a person's faith, is it really okay to question his choice of pastor and to play the four most contemptible snippets from 35 years of sermons ad nauseum and and declare that because a man attended the church where those words were said, he is unfit for the Presidency? That he is not a patriot? I remember you being very upset by the fact that Mike Huckabee was going into churches and giving sermons and refusing to allow cameras or press. When you use Rev. Wright's words to detract from Obama, you show that he was right to not allow cameras in those churches. If we say it's okay to point to the churches that are not like ours, to those "other" churches, and say because a man loves a church that you or I probably wouldn't want to attend because it is so different from what we are used to, to what we think is an appropriate way to worship he is not fit to be President, we make that kind of intolerance okay.

IMHO, dragging out obscure footage of Rev. Wright -- and remember all of his sermons going back 20 years are available, so those things were not typical of the church services -- is putting on display something that makes Obama seem "different" and therefore scary and untrustworthy -- but in a way they people can label it as not being uncomfortable with his race or his slightly more fiery Christianity -- but as a concern about his patriotism.
 

Teresa

SoWal Guide
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I really enjoyed that story punzy!:clap: thanks for sharing. poor skunk. :lol:


No, I believe anyone who has taken the time to know Senator Obama, the man who works for our country every day and is working hard just for the chance of serving America as President, will surely have no problem in noticing the man's giant patriotism. It is the real thing.
 

Camp Creek Kid

Christini Zambini
Feb 20, 2005
1,277
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Seacrest Beach
I
CCK, I have to say that I'm a little disappointed by your comments. I understand you to say that religion is only theology, not the works of church. If it's not okay to question the tenets of a person's faith, is it really okay to question his choice of pastor and to play the four most contemptible snippets from 35 years of sermons ad nauseum and and declare that because a man attended the church where those words were said, he is unfit for the Presidency? That he is not a patriot? I remember you being very upset by the fact that Mike Huckabee was going into churches and giving sermons and refusing to allow cameras or press. When you use Rev. Wright's words to detract from Obama, you show that he was right to not allow cameras in those churches. If we say it's okay to point to the churches that are not like ours, to those "other" churches, and say because a man loves a church that you or I probably wouldn't want to attend because it is so different from what we are used to, to what we think is an appropriate way to worship he is not fit to be President, we make that kind of intolerance okay.

IMHO, dragging out obscure footage of Rev. Wright -- and remember all of his sermons going back 20 years are available, so those things were not typical of the church services -- is putting on display something that makes Obama seem "different" and therefore scary and untrustworthy -- but in a way they people can label it as not being uncomfortable with his race or his slightly more fiery Christianity -- but as a concern about his patriotism.

Rapunzel, I am sorry that you feel I've attacked Obama's church because I have not, but I'm allowed to disagree with his pastor, just as people are allowed to disagree with my choice of religion. This thread is about Obama's speech and I disagree with much of what he said. I also disagree with Obama's positions as a candidate. To call me intolerant because I disagree is a gross misrepresentation of my point of view. I don't have time to respond to this right now in a way that would defend my point of view. I've pretty much said everything I needed to on this issue. But I'm proud to live in a country where we have freedoms and differences of opinions. Obviously in some forums different opinions are not appreciated.
 
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Teresa

SoWal Guide
Staff member
Nov 15, 2004
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Rapunzel, I am sorry that you feel I've attacked Obama's church because I have not, but I'm allowed to disagree with his pastor, just as people are allowed to disagree with my choice of religion. This thread is about his speech and I disagree with much of what he said. To call me intolerant because I disagree is a gross misrepresentation of my point of view. I don't know what else to say and I don't have time to respond to this right now in a way that would defend my point of view. I've pretty much said everything I needed to on this issue. But I'm proud to live in a country where we have freedoms and differences of opinions. Obviously in some forums different opinions are not appreciated.

cck - this isn't a fair statement. different opinions are being given on this thread and all the others. it is a discussion. we do not have to agree, do we? rapunzel can disagree with your assessment, and you can do the same. you are both pretty good at explaining your positions. we all can learn from your input.

maybe we just aren't hearing enough from non-obama supporters on here?
 

Miss Critter

Beach Fanatic
Mar 8, 2008
3,397
2,125
My perfect beach
What a beautifully illustrative story. :love:

A great religious leader SHOULD challenge us. He should question authority.

Well said, rapunzel, and I would argue that that is the job of any great leader, religious or otherwise. The problem is that true leadership is in such short supply of late that many of us can't even recognize it anymore.

From Dr. Martin Luther King:
Cowardice asks the question "Is it safe?" Expediency asks the question "Is it politic?" Vanity asks the question "Is it popular?" But, conscience asks the question "Is it right?" And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but one must take it because conscience tells one that it is right.

From the Buddha:
Do not accept anything simply because it has been said by your teacher, or because it has been written in your sacred book, or because it has been believed by many, or because it has been handed down by your ancestors. Accept and live only according to what will enable you to see Truth face to face.
 

Camp Creek Kid

Christini Zambini
Feb 20, 2005
1,277
125
54
Seacrest Beach
cck - this isn't a fair statement. different opinions are being given on this thread and all the others. it is a discussion. we do not have to agree, do we? rapunzel can disagree with your assessment, and you can do the same. you are both pretty good at explaining your positions. we all can learn from your input.

maybe we just aren't hearing enough from non-obama supporters on here?

She should not imply that I'm intolerant because I disagree with Obama. I was a Romney supporter, but I would never consider that those who disagree with him, politically, were intolerant of his religion.

There are other non-Obama supporters who would share their views on this forum, but are afraid of similar treatment.
 
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