Being Real on Taxes

[30ashopper]

So then is my point 2 untrue?

If the data you present says someone who is supposed to pay 10% really pays 5% and someone who is supposed to pay 40% really pays 25% then an argument can be made that it is not untrue based on delta of points...

G

Hmm, well, lets see. I guess it depends on what percentage of your total income you pay in the end right? So the guy in the 10% bracket pays 5% of his income. The guy in the 40% bracket pays 25% of his income. The 10% guy is paying 1/20, but the 40% guy is paying 1/4. Doesn't seem like the 10% guy is getting worked over compared to the other.

Maybe there's a math major on the board who can run the numbers better than me?

 

[Geo]

Hey,

My point as I stated it was:

2) Folks in lower tax brackets pay closer to the % of their tax bracket than folks do in higher tax brackets (based on having more deductions, creative accountants, etc.)...

I was strategically ambiguous in my phrasing because I only had my own experiences to draw from and not the aggregate you provided at the time I posted...

SO...

If you are calculating the delta using percentage of salary then I am wrong in my above point. But if you are calculating the delta using points then the data appears to support my point...

In other words-
If I am supposed to pay 40% and I pay only 25%, there is a 15% delta between what I was supposed to pay and the actual...

If I am supposed to pay 10% and I pay 5%, there is a 5% delta between what I am supposed to pay and the actual...

So it depends on what the definition of "is" is...

Haha

Good stuff, 30ashopper. Thx for the stimulating conversation!

 

[30ashopper]

Which ones?

It's just the general mood - attacking CEOs for their pay and bonuses and all that. Obama constantly saying the rich aren't paying their fair share while the middle class pays too much. That seems to be pretty typical rhetoric for a class war.

Do you believe this? That by doing well that you are carrying folks on your back? Most believe they pay more taxes than they'd prefer. But because you earn more and therefore pay more (as part of a progressive system) you believe that you are carrying the rest of us on your back?

You know I'm pretty happy with our tax system as it stands right now. However I don't currently make over 250K a year, so I might change my mind if I did. Even so I am pretty certain Obama will raise my taxes, and that frustrates me because I feel I pay too much as it is.

In general, I think the graphs I posted show that the rich do carry the lower income groups on their back. There's some additional data on that web site related to the percentage of the federal budget each income group covers, the rich cover 50% yet they make up only about 19% of the number of contributing families. What do you think?

 

[Geo]

It's just the general mood - attacking CEOs for their pay and bonuses and all that. Obama constantly saying the rich aren't paying their fair share while the middle class pays too much. That's seems to be pretty typical rhetoric for a class war.




You know I'm pretty happy with our tax system as it stands right now. However I don't currently make over 250K a year, so I might change my mind if I did. Even so I am pretty certain Obama will raise my taxes, and that frustrates me because I feel I pay too much as it is.

In general, I think the graphs I posted show that the rich do carry the lower income groups on their back. There's some additional data on that web site related to the percentage of the federal budget each income group covers, the rich cover 50% yet they make up only about 19% of the number of contributing families. What do you think?

I think your response wasn't unfair...

All this talk about taxes- truth be told I don't take issue with what we pay into the system (or who pays what). I have issue with what/how much is being spent on what...

And I believe that is where we can all agree to agree...

 

[traderx]

Geo,

If Obama is elected, do you want him to spend more money than we currently spend or less?

 

[Geo]

Geo,

If Obama is elected, do you want him to spend more money than we currently spend or less?

Great question.

I believe I heard him say that he wouldn't spend more because he would offset new spending with strategic cuts. I'll believe that when I see it (and I am a supporter). The problem is that he is inheriting the financial bailout and the war in Iraq. So IMHO, the only way he could avoid spending more is to give up all of his pet programs...

Now that somewhat tip toes around your question so how's about some straight talk-

I want him to spend more. There it is. So go easy on me now...

I want him to spend more on programs that will improve the quality of life for our citizens (in spite of the spending our gov't just did that will not improve the quality of life for the vast vast majority of our citizens). I acknowledge that for a period that this will add to our nation's debt. But I trust that he will work at spending less on programs that don't work...

I believe he will do the right thing. I trust him. Much like I trusted George Bush right after 9-11. We'll see how it goes this time...
EDIT: Or at least I hope I get the chance to see it- Election Day is Nov 4 and Florida has extended early voting. Vote for change we need!!!

 

[30ashopper]

I want him to spend more. There it is. So go easy on me now...

An important question to ask would be - who should he hand the bill too? Pick a color..

 

[Geo]

An important question to ask would be - who should he hand the bill too? Pick a color..

I believe our grandkids get it. But whatever we can pay for before then will be disproportionately carried on the backs of the folks represented by the pretty blue color at the top...



:shock:

 

[Miss Kitty]

I believe our grandkids get it. But whatever we can pay for until then will disproportionately be carried on the backs of the pretty blue color at the top...



:shock:

Blue? Kinda' ironic, no?

 

[TooFarTampa]

I wouldn't say poppy that Obama is a trend, not yet anyway. It's one election surrounded by very unique circumstances. Take a good look at those graphs. The Democrats would like you to believe there's a class war building against the haves by the have nots.. I think they have the sides mixed up. It might be the haves that are getting tired of carrying everyone else on their backs.

I get what you are saying, but trying to get it out of the middle class is like squeezing blood from a turnip.

From what I understand -- and I think I have seen your charts before, or at least some very similar -- most of the income from the top 1 percent of earners comes from capital gains, not from earned regular income. That would be taxed at 15 percent (probably 20 percent in an Obama administration). It is hard to feel sorry for those folks!

Here is the latest from cnn.money.com on what to expect, posted today with a breakdown by income:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/29/news/economy/candidates_tax_plans/index.htm?postversion=2008102911