the reference is to the pope, and i am relating my view of a church that is eager to accumulate power and wealth, but has a huge humanitarian deficit. it was on full display in africa.
The Pope and the Condom
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I didn't think Bob's latest post was presented in an ill mannered way.
But I am intrigued by your question. I believe on one hand the pope stubbornly views those folks as sinners and as the problem (rather than the church's impractical/outdated guidelines for living as the issue). And on the other hand I believe the pope is just in denial about the whole thing.
I view churches as businesses. They enjoy nonprofit status and a nice tax loophole. But let's be honest here. The only difference between a not for profit and a for profit enterprise is that the former does not pay dividends. People often confuse this as meaning that they are not in business to turn a profit (or that they aren't profitable). Rambling. So here is where I am heading with this.
Most business consultants would advise catholic church inc. that they need to shape up or they will go under. Their most loyal customers are getting old and dying off. They aren't doing much of anything to attract new customers/the customers of the future. The product they continue to manufacture (yes, this was intended to be a playful dig) and sell isn't the product that is in demand with the market. They are getting sued left and right because middle and senior level management ignored and covered up the fact that many many employees in the field sexually abused young customers. Discrimination based on gender and sexual orientation is the norm in the corporate culture. Employee recruitment is near all time lows. Revenue is way down. I could keep going but my concern is that I am the only one having fun with this analogy so I'll hold off for now and see what comes back from the flock.
Cheers, G
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Sorry, Geo...that was an inside joke with Bob. I did think he used nice manners! 
Now, I will go back and read with interest, your answer.
Now, I will go back and read with interest, your answer.
The Vatican's harmful views about condoms | Sex and sensibility | The Economist pope in Africa
Sex and sensibility
Mar 19th 2009
From The Economist print edition
Doing harm in places where Catholicism should have a bright future
AFP
AFRICANS always give a visiting pope a hearty welcome. Thousands of finely dressed Cameroonians danced and sang at the roadside this week as Pope Benedict XVI arrived on an inaugural African tour that will also take in Angola. The Vatican is keen on the continent, home to around 135m Catholics. Pope Benedict delivered a compassionate message, recognising that Africa suffers disproportionately from food shortages, poverty, financial turmoil and a changing climate. Yet for all the mutual appreciation, he got one matter painfully wrong.
Asked about the use of condoms to help tackle the scourge of AIDS, the pope restated, in unusually explicit terms, the church?s position that these are not useful to ?overcome? the epidemic, indeed their use actually makes the problem worse. He suggested the disease could be beaten through chastity, abstinence and ?correct behaviour?. Speaking in a continent where more than 20m people have died from AIDS and another 22.5m are infected with HIV, his statement sounded otherworldly at best, and crass and uncaring at worst. Merely wishing away human sexual behaviour does nothing for the potential victims of AIDS, many of whom are innocent under even the most moralistic definition of that word.
Distributing more condoms would not, on its own, stop the spread of AIDS. Lots of measures are needed: improving education, encouraging monogamy, delaying the age of first sexual encounter, helping young women to win a greater say over their sex lives and widening access to antiretroviral drugs that lessen sufferers? infectiousness. Male circumcision seems to limit the disease?s spread. But giving people condoms can be particularly useful. Experience in Thailand, which snuffed out a rapid early increase of HIV, suggests that condom use, especially by prostitutes and their clients, is effective. The World Health Organisation points out that condoms, used properly, cut the chance of HIV infection by 90%.
Clever leaders matter too. Uganda?s president, Yoweri Museveni, talked frankly and often about ?ABC? habits?abstain, be faithful, use condoms?and saw levels of infection in his country fall. Leaders who deny the science or seriousness of the epidemic, or who are too squeamish to talk of condoms and sex, leave people confused and at great risk: Harvard researchers last year estimated that the approach of South Africa?s Thabo Mbeki had led to 330,000 needless deaths. Sadly, Pope Benedict has put himself squarely in the denial camp.
An ugly light
It need not be that way. Three years ago Pope Benedict was willing for his council for health to consider whether condom use would be a ?lesser evil? than allowing the spread of a deadly virus. Liberal cardinals had suggested that in a marriage where one partner is infected, condoms should be permitted. In Africa, as elsewhere, many Catholics simply ignore the Vatican?s view on condoms anyway.
The pope now seems immovable on the issue. His words on condoms and AIDS look particularly heartless in light of a scandal in Brazil that also casts the Catholic church in a poor light. An archbishop there excommunicated doctors for performing an abortion on a nine-year-old girl who had been raped repeatedly by her stepfather and made pregnant with twins. The girl?s mother was also expelled from the church; the rapist was not. The Vatican has made a partial retreat, criticising the haste with which the decision was made?and, eventually, the decision itself. In this and in its views on condom use to combat the spread of AIDS, the Vatican risks seeming callous to the plight of the weakest, surely those whom the church should strive hardest to protect.
Sex and sensibility
Mar 19th 2009
From The Economist print edition
Doing harm in places where Catholicism should have a bright future
AFP
AFRICANS always give a visiting pope a hearty welcome. Thousands of finely dressed Cameroonians danced and sang at the roadside this week as Pope Benedict XVI arrived on an inaugural African tour that will also take in Angola. The Vatican is keen on the continent, home to around 135m Catholics. Pope Benedict delivered a compassionate message, recognising that Africa suffers disproportionately from food shortages, poverty, financial turmoil and a changing climate. Yet for all the mutual appreciation, he got one matter painfully wrong.
Asked about the use of condoms to help tackle the scourge of AIDS, the pope restated, in unusually explicit terms, the church?s position that these are not useful to ?overcome? the epidemic, indeed their use actually makes the problem worse. He suggested the disease could be beaten through chastity, abstinence and ?correct behaviour?. Speaking in a continent where more than 20m people have died from AIDS and another 22.5m are infected with HIV, his statement sounded otherworldly at best, and crass and uncaring at worst. Merely wishing away human sexual behaviour does nothing for the potential victims of AIDS, many of whom are innocent under even the most moralistic definition of that word.
Distributing more condoms would not, on its own, stop the spread of AIDS. Lots of measures are needed: improving education, encouraging monogamy, delaying the age of first sexual encounter, helping young women to win a greater say over their sex lives and widening access to antiretroviral drugs that lessen sufferers? infectiousness. Male circumcision seems to limit the disease?s spread. But giving people condoms can be particularly useful. Experience in Thailand, which snuffed out a rapid early increase of HIV, suggests that condom use, especially by prostitutes and their clients, is effective. The World Health Organisation points out that condoms, used properly, cut the chance of HIV infection by 90%.
Clever leaders matter too. Uganda?s president, Yoweri Museveni, talked frankly and often about ?ABC? habits?abstain, be faithful, use condoms?and saw levels of infection in his country fall. Leaders who deny the science or seriousness of the epidemic, or who are too squeamish to talk of condoms and sex, leave people confused and at great risk: Harvard researchers last year estimated that the approach of South Africa?s Thabo Mbeki had led to 330,000 needless deaths. Sadly, Pope Benedict has put himself squarely in the denial camp.
An ugly light
It need not be that way. Three years ago Pope Benedict was willing for his council for health to consider whether condom use would be a ?lesser evil? than allowing the spread of a deadly virus. Liberal cardinals had suggested that in a marriage where one partner is infected, condoms should be permitted. In Africa, as elsewhere, many Catholics simply ignore the Vatican?s view on condoms anyway.
The pope now seems immovable on the issue. His words on condoms and AIDS look particularly heartless in light of a scandal in Brazil that also casts the Catholic church in a poor light. An archbishop there excommunicated doctors for performing an abortion on a nine-year-old girl who had been raped repeatedly by her stepfather and made pregnant with twins. The girl?s mother was also expelled from the church; the rapist was not. The Vatican has made a partial retreat, criticising the haste with which the decision was made?and, eventually, the decision itself. In this and in its views on condom use to combat the spread of AIDS, the Vatican risks seeming callous to the plight of the weakest, surely those whom the church should strive hardest to protect.
Thanks Geo and Bob. That Economist article really upset me, but sometimes the truth hurts. Geo...thanks for your response, hopefully others will answer the question, too.
I just returned from a week of building a road, working in a medical clinic, and teaching children in the mountains of Nicaragua. (Stay tuned for pictures).
The Catholic Church is working very hard there to push the condom/abortion issue. In fact, every third business had a sign posted denouncing abortion. I realize abortion and condom use are different issues, but in Latin America they are two heads of the animal. In a country as poor as Nicaragua an issue like this is the only place where the church has power. Education, human rights, and workers rights are off the table due to political pressures.
In November 2006 then President Bolanos signed a bill making all abortions illegal. Then a 9-year old became pregnant due to sex abuse. An abortion was performed. The fury was then unleashed and a cabinet member's head was rolled.
Now Daniel Ortega, a Sandanista, has entered into a pact with the church to continue hard line anti-choice/anti-contraception practices in the Banana Republic of Nica.
The Catholic Church is working very hard there to push the condom/abortion issue. In fact, every third business had a sign posted denouncing abortion. I realize abortion and condom use are different issues, but in Latin America they are two heads of the animal. In a country as poor as Nicaragua an issue like this is the only place where the church has power. Education, human rights, and workers rights are off the table due to political pressures.
In November 2006 then President Bolanos signed a bill making all abortions illegal. Then a 9-year old became pregnant due to sex abuse. An abortion was performed. The fury was then unleashed and a cabinet member's head was rolled.
Now Daniel Ortega, a Sandanista, has entered into a pact with the church to continue hard line anti-choice/anti-contraception practices in the Banana Republic of Nica.
Thank you for being such a good person with your humanitarian efforts in Nicaragua. I have never done such a thing and feel inspired. I need to do more as I am able and that's all it takes besides willingness...
But what is your point?
Is this an FYI that some countries support the pope's stance on condoms? Something else?
No disrespect intended...
I'm sure I am not the only one who looks forward to your pics...
G
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good question MK. we have groups, like many of my own relatives, who follow the Pope and anything he says. they follow the church's teachings to the letter, and they love the church with all their being. they are truly inspired and live full lives with the church and God, Jesus, Mary and all the saints being right there in the center. and I say wonderful for them. but, really, most of us have always used our own free will, and they have done this in Italy and Europe for ages. I've read stats that say that even though 90% of people in Italy are Catholic, only 10% practice their religion. It is more cultural than anything. and that is how I relate to the church - in a cultural way.
so, I think the Pope knows the score but he still has a responsibility to lead in the way the Church feels best serves God and its people. I agree with Geo that the church will need to make changes to survive. I hope the changes are good ones, and that they happen sooner rather than later. its a massive and ancient religion - its gone through many changes over the centuries. it will continue to do so, if very slowly. I am very impressed with much that the church does, the high level of education required of its clergy, its support of science and evolution (no intelligent design theory supported here) and education, etc. It does have a lot of solid stuff there. But, changing the way things are done, and changing its stance on certain moral issues, well all that is all extremely difficult within such a conservative group no matter what the circumstances.
I just remember John Paul II and loving every word and action he ever said or did. such a humble and loving man, and with such education and worldly experience. He believed and practiced every aspect of his faith. I don't practice all that he preached. but I loved him and his words just the same. I respect and appreciate what he says because I know that his words were based on pure faith, not politics (unlike what we are used to seeing so much of in this world). I don't know about Pope Ben, but I think JP was very respectful of people like me in the church. He still need not ever need to bend a rule to suit me. I do not think I would want that anyway.
so, I guess what I'm saying is that its okay not to buy the whole enchilada. my mother would so not agree.
and good for her!
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