Build vs Buy?

[woodworker]

MissSunshine-

Another thought I had - where you purchase your lot may depend on what builders you can use. I think it works this way in some developments, anyway.

Some of us local working stiffs haven't gone through whatever it takes to get on "the preferred list".

I kind of faded out when it turned into the $300s.f. / foreign labor / building glut / McMansion game. Too much stress.

 

[AAbsolute]

MissSunshine -

While these guys are arguing, I'll just let you know that you can probably get pretty close to $100 - $150 s.f. I've always been a "working builder" and have always built for a lot less than the polo shirt / new truck / 5 houses at a time guys.

Keeping your house normal helps a lot. A too big house with difficult structure or crazy materials is going to just jack up the price because of the pita factor. Keep it streamlined and the job will run smooth = less $s.f. Keeps out the expensive "specialists", too.

Just look for the older, local builders that didn't get caught up in the $s.f./ subcontract game. (They'll be the ones with paint on their pants).

If MissSunshine or anyone else gave you a complete set of plans could you come up with a total cost of materials? I appreciate the fast that you quoted $100 to $150 per foot. That would mean that the cost of materials is not very much and that the cost of implementation and administration is where the real disparity is.

Maybe some builders are just plain worth the extra $250,000.

 

[AAbsolute]

I am a big proponent of building instead of buying, but that is because I am rather particular about what features I want (shocking, eh?) and quality levels.

Prices have gone down quite a bit IMO, but asking what it costs to build a house per square foot is like asking what a pair of shoes costs - too many factors to give an acurrate answer. If you would be willing to post more details like square footage, construction type, finish level etc. there are many people on the board who could give you a better ballpark figure of current prices.

There are some good contractors around, and some not so good ones. Make sure your contractor is licensed in Florida, thoroughly check their references, complaints against them, and examples of their work.

Also, look at their feet - dirty/well worn workboots will build you a much better and cheaper house than flip-flops w/ no sock tan line!

Like Scooterbug said, dirty/well worn workboots vs flip flops w/no sock tan line. Maybe you would want to ask a potential builder what labor and installation they performed on their last 20 jobs and get a personal look at some of it.

 

[woodworker]

If MissSunshine or anyone else gave you a complete set of plans could you come up with a total cost of materials? I appreciate the fast that you quoted $100 to $150 per foot. That would mean that the cost of materials is not very much and that the cost of implementation and administration is where the real disparity is.

Maybe some builders are just plain worth the extra $250,000.

Sheesh... I knew this would happen. :roll: That's why I don't post here much. I'm not really into the "debate by keyboard" thing.

I'll probably be taken out by the "builder mafia of sowal" but here goes -

Yep. Complete set of materials, 3 estimates for installation per line item if necessary (some are a "known").

Let's face it - granite counter tops, ss appliances, upgraded tile or wood floors, wood windows, etc. are an added cost but the slab, studs, plywood, etc. remain the same (and they're pretty cheap right now). I think a lot of builder's, including the one's that are going to hunt me down shortly, instantly tack on extra costs that aren't necessary just because a client want's a higher grade counter top, etc.

And I also think they charge a little extra for the unknown/fear/screw up factor. Screw up=not being on the job working with installations, keeping all things running in the most efficient order. Believe me, I've witnessed this a lot - it's usually caused buy a builder wanting to "go big", thus trying to run too many jobs at one time.

Most cheaper/older/local builder's don't have high overhead, flashy websites, new fishing boats, a wife with expensive tastes, etc, etc... They just want to get out there and work again like they used to be able to before this area got pimped out.

I remember when we were just happily building away, and suddenly it seemed like every shiny-shoe business person was coming down here, getting their license, and going to the county to chop up land. Very sad. Looks like were gonna pay for that one now.

Anyway- Sorry MissSunshine- What was the question?

 

[woodworker]

If MissSunshine or anyone else gave you a complete set of plans could you come up with a total cost of materials? I appreciate the fast that you quoted $100 to $150 per foot. That would mean that the cost of materials is not very much and that the cost of implementation and administration is where the real disparity is.

Maybe some builders are just plain worth the extra $250,000.

Ha... I read that again and thought -Did I take him wrong? Sorry if I misunderstood, I thought you were taking me to task.

Too much coffee this morning, and, well maybe I'm a little miffed. I'm sure it wasn't obvious.

Sorry MissSunshine - such an innocent question. Bet you weren't aiming for the hive when you asked it!

Short answer - I believe it's cheaper to build right now with a "working" (local) builder, not one that's a few months past due on the boat payment, taxes, etc. - They gotta make that up somewhere.

There are some foreclosures deals out there, but why wouldn't you just get a new house - should be close to or a little more than the same price with the right builder. A new house won't have that funny Ramen smell either.(cue Shelly). Nevermind...

Seems like you could find some reasonable lots with nego. sellers right now, fall season and all.

 

[Matt J]

Do you think local builders who used to charge $275 per square foot for product that was $180 per sqaure foot other places are finally going to perform for less now? On a 2,500 square foot home that's a difference of $237,500.

Can we please have a meaningful math based discussion on the issue that doesn't go off and attack me as the poster in order to dilute the subject of cost of construction? You have been posting on Sowal for a long time and are chiming in on this issue. I'm more than curious about local builders who had been charging out of town Owners unsupported pricing for years. Many, many of these Owners will never recoup the inflated fees they were charged.

I know a lot of these companies and worked as a sub for them to. Many times we were told that their agreements were cost plus and they wanted us to bid at a certain price level. I have personally witnessed local builders ordering materials at cost plus and then having subs take the materials away so the Owner would not get mad they paid cost plus for them. I won't name names, because Kurt and Sowal wouldn't approve, but I'm not personally opposed to backing up my word.

Let's just talk some mathematical fact about the historical difference in price that the local builders charged compared to equivalent construction elsewhere.

A Word To The Wise Out of Town Owners: Consider the Source and possible motivations of people who supported construction costs that exceeded the geographic norm.

First, I'm not attacking you. My original statement was a simple statement of what sometimes happens and never mentioned you.

Second, as to your question as to why in the past people were getting charged more, it was simple supply and demand. If finding a builder who can fit you in to his schedule is at a premium why shouldn't the charge be? Nobody was forcing anyone to build during the boom that was a personal choice (other than the few people in WaterSound/WaterColor). Have you ever noticed that Doctors, Dentists, Attorneys, Accountants etc. charge more when there are more people demanding their services?

 

[YoungFT]

Not a complete answer to your question of cost per square ft but interesting to note that lumber costs are down 25-35% from the peak 2005-2006 period.

http://www.nahb.org/page.aspx/category/sectionID=133

 

[AAbsolute]

First, I'm not attacking you. My original statement was a simple statement of what sometimes happens and never mentioned you.

Second, as to your question as to why in the past people were getting charged more, it was simple supply and demand. If finding a builder who can fit you in to his schedule is at a premium why shouldn't the charge be? Nobody was forcing anyone to build during the boom that was a personal choice (other than the few people in WaterSound/WaterColor). Have you ever noticed that Doctors, Dentists, Attorneys, Accountants etc. charge more when there are more people demanding their services?

Thanks for the response. I'm over sensitive.

I remember charging todays rates from '99 through '05 and having every builder and real estate investor I bumped into saying "John can't really build for that. He's robbing Peter to pay Paul", and the rest of the typical nonsense. It's refreshing to hear you quote "as to your question as to why in the past people were getting charged more, it was simple supply and demand. If finding a builder who can fit you in to his schedule is at a premium why shouldn't the charge be?"

That my friend is very clear and very truthful about why builders were charging so much. I was building for the normal price and being maligned every time it exposed the truth. It will be interesting to see if other builders prices start going down now.

 

[Matt J]

Thanks for the response. I'm over sensitive.

I remember charging todays rates from '99 through '05 and having every builder and real estate investor I bumped into saying "John can't really build for that. He's robbing Peter to pay Paul", and the rest of the typical nonsense. It's refreshing to hear you quote "as to your question as to why in the past people were getting charged more, it was simple supply and demand. If finding a builder who can fit you in to his schedule is at a premium why shouldn't the charge be?"

That my friend is very clear and very truthful about why builders were charging so much. I was building for the normal price and being maligned every time it exposed the truth. It will be interesting to see if other builders prices start going down now.

We all go thru the over sensitive part from time to time.

Just to clarify:

Be leary of contractors that come in well below others. This is either a red flag for change orders down the road or flat out ignoring Architect's specs.

This comment was also not directed at you. It is based on a local (and will remain unnamed contrator), but not directed at you.

 

[scooterbug44]

Not every builder is ripping people off - there are certain aspects of building in this area that are simply more expensive - hurricane doors and windows, strapping, sturdier construction etc.

I am not saying that there aren't places where some aren't making some extra profit, or that you can't build something for a certain price if you are conscious of your budget and make good choices, just to make sure you are comparing apples and apples.

Frequently, the "low" bidders end up being more expensive because of many change orders, incomplete bids, shoddy workmanship (increased costs both for hiring someone else to fix it and to pursue it legally), and the extra time and effort required to deal with them.

Someone who claims to be building the same thing for a drastically different price is typically NOT doing so with the same level of quality. There are some local builders who constantly brag about their low prices and their work is so awful it is mind-boggling! Research the heck out of your builder!!!