Feels hopeless.....

[Teresa Cline]

Although I haven't traveled to virtually every continent as my husband has, I have traveled fairly extensively. One shock to me was that some of the people I met in Wisconsin are as redneck as the biggest rednecks that I've met in the South. So I don't think that redneck or being close-minded is a Southern mindset. Some Southerners have "that" mindset; some non-Southerners have "that" mindset as well.

BTW I have very good friends who are very liberal, and I have very good friends who are very conservative ... on every issue, not just politics. Unless someone is hateful or vindictive, I think I can pretty much understand everyone's point of view and am accepting of that. I have a very heterogeneous group of friends. The way I figure it is that no two people agree on everything. Part of the spice of life is getting mentally stimulated by the point of view of others which forces a thinking person to internally verbalize why s/he believes the way in which s/he does.

VERY good point Beach Runner!

 

[maark]

WHOA there Rapunzel! You have made a HUGE mountain out of a little ole molehill.

The one and only point of my message was to point out your tirade aganst us dumb rednecks was "belittling of the ideas of others". I never mentioned Authoritarian or Libitarian conflict. Neither did I mention the "solid south" in my message. I never spoke of "branding" by either party and I certainly didn't call you an elitist snob.

And if you think that my message "reamed" you I am profoundly sorry. I find your sensibilities far to delicate for conversation with me. That message was a long way from a "reaming" message.

There is also some kind of paranoid alusion to a hidden identity... where is that coming from? My identity is singular ... I have often been told there is no one like me.

I do not see you as an evildoer... I just do not agree with you on several points and I think your opinion of some as "small minded, backward insular rednecks" is a mean and belittling statement if I ever heard one. That statement in itself indicates you are unable to value their opinions THEREBY LIMITING YOUR OWN DIVERSITY OF THOUGHT.

I must admit now that you point it out that there is an elitist tint to your messages. It appears that you think any differing opinion is obviously and devinely wrong and therfore anyone holding such an opinion must be a "small minded, backward, insular redneck". I am sure it may give you security in the devine righteousness of your view but it in no way encourages diversity of thought. (OK so there is a little reaming here. LOL You are just too vulnerable)

I hope you have a wonderful day in this paradise we all call home and that you can unwind a little!!

 

[Beach Runner]

Group hug time. I would like all of you for making me think beyond just my own family and job. I find it very stimulating and educational.

I would also like to thank those of you (Mango, for one) who have been there for me when I needed them.

Sorry if anyone's feeling have been hurt. And sorry for the tangent.

 

[rapunzel]

I only want to say one thing. I haven't met or broke bread with everyone on this thread, but, I do suspect one thing in my heart. That if something tragic happened to me or mine, or there was a national tragedy, regardless of political affiliation or ideological beliefs, that each and everyone of you would band together as a community to assist and help in any way possible.

Perhaps that is all the hope we need. Perhaps it is too simplistic, but, often forgotten when we delve into specifics in everyday life, we forget the broad.

I think you are right, Mango, correct in every way about the broad.

If I seem sensitive, well...it's because I am. I make an ironic comment surrounded by ifs, and then find myself made out an elitist jerk.

In real life, around a table, I've never been called confrontational, never been accused of personal attacks. I've never felt I needed to correct the record among friends, and it's easy to let things go when everyone knows you, heard the inflection in your voice, and understands what you meant. People rarely twist your words to your face, and are easily set right if they do.

For those who keep their identity secret and those who don't live here, it may be hard to understand what it's like to go to get a manicure and have people recognize you and launch into a conversation about politics and then have someone you laid eyes on for the first time 5 minutes ago tell you that you are "too confrontational and that's why nobody likes you." To have people you want to work with -- who have known you for approximately two hours -- tell you to be careful about personal attacks, you might not be able to work with the public. It makes it hard to let some things roll like water off a duck's back.

I'm sensitive and empathetic, and unfortunately tend to avoid confrontation. I've been the PR person in virtually every organization I've worked with. I'm not even particularly liberal.

I find it supremely ironic that the person who took my quote so completely out of context and then played with the meaning of the word goes on in the next post to talk about Barack Obama's Politics chapter from The Audacity of Hope virtually point by point. When I first ventured into the fray of the political forum, it was with that chapter as inspiration, to try to generate discussion of issues rather than waving pompoms and cross-talking. I still haven't really seen a debate on an issue that didn't have people taking sides. I have made mistakes, and I know my writing style is not the best -- I have a dry sense of humor and that doesn't come across in writing.

As the posting starts to impact my real life, I remember why I didn't talk about politics for so many years. This morning, I thought that I should answer the attacks and clarify my posts if I wanted to continue to post, but perhaps it's a no win. I come off a whiney baby if I answer a post honestly, or I come off an elitist Birkenstock wearing trust fund Democrat with a seething contempt for hard working Americans if I don't.

Unfortunately, I think the only way to be out as Rapunzel and live in SoWal is to not post anything remotely controversial. Which sucks, as I really enjoyed some of the back and forth.

 

[ktschris]

I have been on this board for a number of years and mostly lurk. It affords me the luxury of reading everything and learning from other peoples views, and not be personally attacked for mine. It also allows me to be somewhat detached which keeps me out of ?debates? in the the heat of the moment. I must say, sometimes to the casual observer, it can be brutal.

Rapunzel, please do not stop posting your views. I find your post to be most thoughtful and very educational. I have never know your posts to be unfair or treat anyone with anything but respect.

Thank you.

 

[Andy A]

Andy A., I've net your wife and she does not meet the definition of a redneck. A redneck is defined as, "A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude." Your wife seemed neither provincial nor bigoted. I know your wife would not have made disparaging remarks about the race or ethnic group of the father of someone she was talking to -- especially not someone as sharp and just freaking interesting as Chickpea.

Andy A., when I met you in real life you seemed so nice and genuinely likable. Yet, every time someone posts something negative or hurtful directed at me, you thank them. It's hard for me to reconcile how someone I could like could do that so often and with such consistency. These aren't ideas you're choosing to confront me about, or statement that might be taken wrong that you're asking me to clarify.

Rapunzel, for your information, our posts on Maark crossed in the mail. When I posted, I did not know who had written what he was saying about "Rednecks". Look at the quote at the top of his post. It does not say who the poster was. Did I think it was an elitist quote? Yes. Did I know it was you? No. BTW, it appears to me you can dish it out but can't take it when it comes back to you. And as I remember, you got on Sescrestkristie for the very same attitude. I give you that you are articulate, intelligent and charming. If you feel I am being too blunt, welcome the the world of directness. Its part of my heritage. As far as my "thanking" people who post something negative or hurtful directed at you, I "thank" those whose posts I agree with without a thought of how it affects you or anyone else on this board. It has nothing to do with you, personally, but it is a given that we agree to disagree on politics and the Presidential election. I, to agree with one of your premises, would have voted for Colin Powell in a New York minute, but Obama, never! I am sorry you are taking some posts to be personal attacks. On reading some of them, I do not. So, in closing, no personal offense intended.

 

[Minnie]

What I don't understand is why in the Political forum of all places does the Quote feature malfuntion more than any other area.

It really causes confusion and as seen in the past some bad arguements.

I guess even the Quote Feature can't decide what side it is on.

 

[maark]

I still haven't really seen a debate on an issue that didn't have people taking sides.

I think I have found the problem!!

Punz, I think you need to reevaluate your definition of "debate". It seems "give and take" are not as important to you as agreement. I think you may be more interested in conversation amoung folks with similar views, (I.E. exactly the same)

Just my observation...

 

[rapunzel]

WHOA there Rapunzel! You have made a HUGE mountain out of a little ole molehill.

The one and only point of my message was to point out your tirade aganst us dumb rednecks was "belittling of the ideas of others". I never mentioned Authoritarian or Libitarian conflict. Neither did I mention the "solid south" in my message. I never spoke of "branding" by either party and I certainly didn't call you an elitist snob.

And if you think that my message "reamed" you I am profoundly sorry. I find your sensibilities far to delicate for conversation with me. That message was a long way from a "reaming" message.

There is also some kind of paranoid alusion to a hidden identity... where is that coming from? My identity is singular ... I have often been told there is no one like me.

I do not see you as an evildoer... I just do not agree with you on several points and I think your opinion of some as "small minded, backward insular rednecks" is a mean and belittling statement if I ever heard one. That statement in itself indicates you are unable to value their opinions THEREBY LIMITING YOUR OWN DIVERSITY OF THOUGHT.

I must admit now that you point it out that there is an elitist tint to your messages. It appears that you think any differing opinion is obviously and devinely wrong and therfore anyone holding such an opinion must be a "small minded, backward, insular redneck". I am sure it may give you security in the devine righteousness of your view but it in no way encourages diversity of thought. (OK so there is a little reaming here. LOL You are just too vulnerable)

I hope you have a wonderful day in this paradise we all call home and that you can unwind a little!!

You are a rhetorical master, Maark. Nice pivot -- you're making a mountain out of a molehill/now that you mention it you are elitist -- and paranoid!

If you really are a Beach Crab, then . However, there is a history of people on this board creating pseudonyms to post rude or controversial messages. It's very unusual for someone to just jump into the fray. If that is truly what happened, then my apologies.

Here's why I made a hasty conclusion --
First, you take an ironic post out of context, remove the if part of the statement, and proceed to call me out for being insensitive to the point of view of good working class people. If you came on the board this week, read Chickpea's description of what happened to bring her down, and saw my response to her and took away that I was the one who didn't embrace diversity of thought then perhaps you don't get the irony, the "I don't think this is the case but hope we all will take a long hard minute to make sure it's not" implied by the word "if."

I invite you, as a new member, to go back and read some of my 1300+ posts before you decide to correct my ignorant, anti-redneck views. If you'd read some of my posts, you might realize I do embrace diverse thought. I prefer friends with informed, opposite views to friends who have no interest in politics at all. My dear Skunky is himself a conservative. My dad was a huge redneck (as you define the word, not me). My brother is both and works for Big Oil, and I love(d) them all.

The second thing that set off my suspicions was the "all opinions are equal" part of your post. This is something I've seen posted on this board time and again, and I just can't disagree more. All votes are equal, and rightly so. all opinions do not, however, carry equal weight. If someone wants to mock people of a certain ethnic group, and all the people around them nod their head in agreement -- no, their opinions are not as valid as any other. Bigotry is just not acceptable. Making others uncomfortable based on thinly veiled racism, making someone who is such an asset to this (or any) community feel like an outsider, isn't okay. I'll be happy to debate that with you, but I resent you taking comments directed at a small group of people that behaved poorly and turning it into a broad attack on an entire culture.

There is no elitist tint to my messages. I am quite sure the people whose behavior I judged so harshly are far more elite and have far more standing in the community than I do. There is nothing elitist about being appalled when respected members of the community behave so disrepectfully to others....particularly others I happen to like a lot. The thread was started asking that it not descend into a political rehashing, and my intent was merely to use a bit of levity to cheer up a poster I like and respect.

If, on your fifth post, you feel you know the board well enough to call me elitist and paranoid....well, I hope you'll utilize the read other posts by this poster feature of the board before you post your opinions of others.

 

[maark]

Punz, you attribute mastery way too easily. There are several things I have mastered but rhetoric is not one of them. This is not a personal attack on you.

You also seem to read volumes betweem the lines of my messages. Let me tell you in no uncertain terms that those volumes do not exist. If you will re read my first message very carfully and just read the words that are actually there you will see that I only have one point to make. This is not a personal attack on you.

Subsequent messages are also to be taken at face value. I have never read any book by Barack Obama. I tend to like older more mature authors. I am not an "out of towner". I have been here longer than the local Winn Dixie. I am not out to get you. This is not a personal attack on you.

My speculation that all opinions are valid is an original thought of my own. It may have existed before (and probably did) but I didn't copy it. I firmly believe that opinions are based on experience and that all experience is worthy of appreciation and recognition. This is not a personal attack on you.

I seem to have upset you greatly and that was not my intent. I was seeking conversation and enlightenment. I would like to talk to someone else... maybe it will work out better.