Fire Fighters Association offers plan to cut South Walton budget | offers, beach, plan - Northwest Florida Daily News
Let the onslaught begin
Replies
169Beach Lover
Mr. Stange sat through the process last time. It usually works with the Chief being the head negotiatior. That was how it was last time. Mark Youngblood was Chief negotiator for our side and Chief Talbert was the head of their side. This time I get the feeling I am dealing more directly with Mr. Stange and get the feeling he is the head rep for their side, although Chief Talbert still has a major part.
Beach Lover
Also, if you have the ages I would love to know how long I'm gonna live.
SoWal Insider
Buzz, I am not a numbers guy but did some more research and the return history of the plan is from Oct 2003, To Oct 2004: 10.96% 04-05: 12.32% 05-06: 9.12% 06-07: 15.75 07-08: -17.77% 08-09: 4.99% 09-10 8.35%. I was told that at the halfway point in this year it was at a little over 9%. I recieved these numbers from the Fund Monitor The Bogdahn Group. Buzz, since your a numbers guy I will let you figure the average return. To that point though I am still missing the first couple of years and will endeavor to find them. The way it was explained to me is this needs to average 8% over 30 years for the assumption to work. Buzz, enjoy the sand.
6.75% average. But your numbers don't jibe with the report Bob posted. They have:
Year ending: return
9/30/2010: 8.3%
9/30/2009: 7.7%
9/30/2008: -19.0%
On top of that the balance sheet shows a net gain in investment assets of around 3.8%. I'm sure this stuff adds up some way but at this point it would seem we really don't have accurate numbers. Maybe someone should contact the Board of Trustees and ask them to join the discussion, they should be able to clear this up, I hope.
Beach Fanatic
42.27 years
Hope you beat the statistical average.
Hope you beat the statistical average.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
The numbers I posted came directly from the actuarial study.
Hopefully it is correct.
Hopefully it is correct.
Beach Fanatic
Mr. Stange sat through the process last time. It usually works with the Chief being the head negotiatior. That was how it was last time. Mark Youngblood was Chief negotiator for our side and Chief Talbert was the head of their side. This time I get the feeling I am dealing more directly with Mr. Stange and get the feeling he is the head rep for their side, although Chief Talbert still has a major part.
I thought I heard someone state that it was Mr. Abbitt
SoWal Insider
As for why we are not in FRS and are in this Chapter 175 plan let me address that with this. Every Homeowner in South Walton pays a 1.85% excise tax on your homeowner insurance. You would pay this regardless of what the local FD retirement plan is. You also pay a similar tax on your car insurance this money goes to fund these plans for police officers it’s called a Chapter 185 plan. With us being in this plan the money you spend does not just go somewhere else. They actually return that money to this retirement plan. So you should feel good that your tax money is here and not down in south Florida. Maybe the elected officials got this one right?
I don't think so based on what I'm seeing in terms of the liability of the fund and the current pay rates when you include base salary and benefits.
Also, the only person making six figures is Chief Talbert who is making right at 113k/year. Sean Hughes was at around 103k/year but we all know where we are with that.
Are you including pension benefits when you calculate those salaries or are you just listing base salary? Firefighters pay is ~50% base salary and ~50% pension benefits. You have to include both parts to get an accurate representation of what they make.
I believe someone also made a comment about working 25yrs like (only!). I invite anyone to come do this job for 25 years and see what kind of toll it takes on you physically and mentally.
They're firefighters. They put out fires. They chose the job. I take offense to what you're implying, I've worked my rear end off all my life, it's taken a toll on me but I don't expect the people I work for to write me a check every year for 25 years after I retire. The wear and tear goes with the territory you choose to be in.
That being said I love that fact that I get to help people and I feel like I make a decent living providing this crucial service to you. You will never hear me say I have it bad, all I have to do is look at the FD that I pay taxes too to see what bad is. I don’t think you want 60 year old guys crawling down the hallway of your house in hopes of getting you dragged out. Especially since our gear weighs 50-70lbs alone. I also don’t think you want a 60 year old police officer chasing an 18 year old fugitive.
Which is why the contract stipulates firefighters can retire at 55. This discussion is about the current state of the fund, compensation, and benefits after retirement. Again I ask you to please stop hoisting our firefighters up on a cross.
I did find out one more thing regarding the life span assumption. It uses a table and does not mention any specific ages. I am now trying to track down a copy of that lifespan table.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
75.6 for men, 80.8 for women.
SoWal Insider
6.75% average. But your numbers don't jibe with the report Bob posted. They have:
Year ending: return
9/30/2010: 8.3%
9/30/2009: 7.7%
9/30/2008: -19.0%
I wonder if these percentages are before or after management expenses. Maybe Buz can clear that up after he gets back from the beach.
Beach Fanatic
The main reason as I remember was that the legislature had to much control over FRS. It was a negotiated item between labor and management. As for what it is best, I am not sure on whose opinion that is based.
I think it is obvious that going with the state would be better for the taxpayers. As we sit the taxpayers are on the hook for all the unfunded liabilities for the local pension fund. If the firefighters were enrolled in the state system then the local taxpayer would be better protected.
Beach Lover
I will say that FRS is one of the best funded pension plans in the country. It is solid. The cost to the district would be about the same. I think the last thing I heard was that if you were in FRS high risk your precentage of payroll owed was about 23%. That's pretty close to what the District is paying now.
Is there more risk in our type of plan? I'm sure there is. One thing never mentioned on here is that of all the special taxing districts in the state of Florida you have the one with the lowest tax rate. You also have a fire department that provides one of the best levels of service. You’re getting a lot of bang for your buck.
30a, so are you telling me that you think this job is pretty simple? You go put out fires? I guess in the simplest terms sure that's true but we also provide technical rescue, EMS and fire prevention. We also will come change your smoke detectors, get your cat out of a tree, get your dog out of a drainage pipe, and we try to help whenever possible. How this job affects a person is very different from one person to the next. Some guys might be able to do this job for 40yrs and some might only physically be able to go 15. I think 25yrs is a good average and after that time risking your life you should get rewarded. I have never done this job for the acclaim or money, but I will say that I have never thought of myself as a burden to the taxpayers. I feel like every one of us who work at SWFD comes to work every day and tries to do the best that they can. Our pay is on average with the rest of the state. Our retirement is not unheard of in the state. Even the City of Milton FD has the same plan with a 4% multiplier. I guess what I’m asking is are you the person who is going to stand up and say your against what firefighters stand for? It might seem that I’m getting personal but I just don’t understand why anyone would have an issue with firefighters, police officers, or the military getting a better than average retirement. That is your issue right? I think my current retirement is awesome. Do I think I have earned it? YES! I think every firefighter in the country has earned the best retirement that can be afforded. Of course I’m biased towards firefighters so I guess you have to take that with a grain of salt.
Is there more risk in our type of plan? I'm sure there is. One thing never mentioned on here is that of all the special taxing districts in the state of Florida you have the one with the lowest tax rate. You also have a fire department that provides one of the best levels of service. You’re getting a lot of bang for your buck.
30a, so are you telling me that you think this job is pretty simple? You go put out fires? I guess in the simplest terms sure that's true but we also provide technical rescue, EMS and fire prevention. We also will come change your smoke detectors, get your cat out of a tree, get your dog out of a drainage pipe, and we try to help whenever possible. How this job affects a person is very different from one person to the next. Some guys might be able to do this job for 40yrs and some might only physically be able to go 15. I think 25yrs is a good average and after that time risking your life you should get rewarded. I have never done this job for the acclaim or money, but I will say that I have never thought of myself as a burden to the taxpayers. I feel like every one of us who work at SWFD comes to work every day and tries to do the best that they can. Our pay is on average with the rest of the state. Our retirement is not unheard of in the state. Even the City of Milton FD has the same plan with a 4% multiplier. I guess what I’m asking is are you the person who is going to stand up and say your against what firefighters stand for? It might seem that I’m getting personal but I just don’t understand why anyone would have an issue with firefighters, police officers, or the military getting a better than average retirement. That is your issue right? I think my current retirement is awesome. Do I think I have earned it? YES! I think every firefighter in the country has earned the best retirement that can be afforded. Of course I’m biased towards firefighters so I guess you have to take that with a grain of salt.
Beach Lover
Bob H. Jack Abbit negotiated the contract in 2006 where we got the 4% mulitplier and 20% pay raises. He did that I'm guessing because the information that he was provided said that we could do it and we should do it. In that same contract he helped provide better staffing levels.
In 2009 we got nor asked for anything that cost more money. We as a group management/labor agreed that economic times were tough and decided to stay status quo for as long as possible. The changes made were things like combining all our leaves into one bank of leave (that took a lot of time) no pun intended. We also from time to time realize issues with contract language that needs to be cleaned up or made to read more clearly. Mr. Stange helped that process along.
I think we (labor) know that things have to change. It is just a matter of where we can make cuts and save the most money with the least impact on all parties.
In 2009 we got nor asked for anything that cost more money. We as a group management/labor agreed that economic times were tough and decided to stay status quo for as long as possible. The changes made were things like combining all our leaves into one bank of leave (that took a lot of time) no pun intended. We also from time to time realize issues with contract language that needs to be cleaned up or made to read more clearly. Mr. Stange helped that process along.
I think we (labor) know that things have to change. It is just a matter of where we can make cuts and save the most money with the least impact on all parties.
Beach Lover
30a, When I got the numbers I was told that they are slightly different from the numbers in the valuation study. The person who gave me the numbers did not know why they are different, but the numbers I have provided as best I can tell deal only with the investment portion of the plan. If we don't hear from Buzz I'll try one other person to see if they know why there is a difference.
Beach Lover
Which is why the contract stipulates firefighters can retire at 55. This discussion is about the current state of the fund, compensation, and benefits after retirement. Again I ask you to please stop hoisting our firefighters up on a cross.
QUOTE]
I don't think i'm putting any person on a cross, I am pointing out that this is a young man's profession. Meaning that even at 55 you might be asking a bit much physically to do the things this job requires. Some guys will not have a problem at this age, but your best preformance is going to come from younger guys. I didn't think anyone would need a scientific study to show that. I'm a young 32, but when I was 22 I was much better off for the rigors of this job. I can only imagine what it will be like 10yrs from now. I can't explain to you the stress this job puts on you physically and I think more importantly mentally. I think a working a job like construction can be just as physically demanding but it differs in the mental stress that you incur.
Edited
Beach FanaticAuthor
I don't think so based on what I'm seeing in terms of the liability of the fund and the current pay rates when you include base salary and benefits.
Are you including pension benefits when you calculate those salaries or are you just listing base salary? Firefighters pay is ~50% base salary and ~50% pension benefits. You have to include both parts to get an accurate representation of what they make.
They're firefighters. They put out fires. They chose the job. I take offense to what you're implying, I've worked my rear end off all my life, it's taken a toll on me but I don't expect the people I work for to write me a check every year for 25 years after I retire. The wear and tear goes with the territory you choose to be in.
Which is why the contract stipulates firefighters can retire at 55. This discussion is about the current state of the fund, compensation, and benefits after retirement. Again I ask you to please stop hoisting our firefighters up on a cross.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
75.6 for men, 80.8 for women.
Absolutely, I chose this career and I have no beef. That still does not make me say I should do the job for you for free. Your elected officials and our labor leadership sat down and decided what was fair through negotiations. I have no idea how old you are, what kind of work you do or what you are paid and what your retirement plan is like, but if you are making more money than me, living large on your retirement, living in a huge house on the beach, I am not jealous of you matter of fact, congrats, at the same time quit thinking that what we do is meaningless and some how we are less deserving of our wage and pension because we are public employees. You do what you do, we do what we do. So are you going to run for Fire Board or what?
Beach Lover
I read this a few months ago.
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/opinions/x13292164/COLUMN-American-workers-got-what-they-deserved
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/opinions/x13292164/COLUMN-American-workers-got-what-they-deserved
SoWal Insider
30a, so are you telling me that you think this job is pretty simple?
No I do not, and I think the 25 year term is perfectly understandable.
What I am questioning:
1) are the members of the union currently overpaid when you take into account salary and benefits?
2) Is there an unfunded liability with the pension fund?
If yes to 2:
A) how serious is the problem?
B) should firefighters and/or the county be contributing more?
I like running forward looking scenarios, and I'd like to do that on the fund. As I've mentioned previous the core problem with any defined benefits pension system is that none of the active players have the incentive keep the system on sound financial footing. The union constantly works to increase benefits - which increases liability. Elected officials constantly work to keep taxpayer contributions to a minimum, and it seems in our case have let the union walk all over them in the past during negotiations - which increases liability. So here we are in a very typical fiscal situation where the pension fund is underfunded but by how much we do not know as the actuarial studies aren't using the right assumptions. (As I previously stated I'm amazed something like this could come about in Walton County.)
Edited
SoWal Insider
30a, When I got the numbers I was told that they are slightly different from the numbers in the valuation study. The person who gave me the numbers did not know why they are different, but the numbers I have provided as best I can tell deal only with the investment portion of the plan. If we don't hear from Buzz I'll try one other person to see if they know why there is a difference.
Someone must have copies of the actuarial studies that have been done in the past. As a basis that's really all we need. From that we can figure out typical return rates and wage increase history, both of which are key to figuring out what state the fund is in.
SoWal Insider
Absolutely, I chose this career and I have no beef. That still does not make me say I should do the job for you for free. Your elected officials and our labor leadership sat down and decided what was fair through negotiations. I have no idea how old you are, what kind of work you do or what you are paid and what your retirement plan is like, but if you are making more money than me, living large on your retirement, living in a huge house on the beach, I am not jealous of you matter of fact, congrats, at the same time quit thinking that what we do is meaningless and some how we are less deserving of our wage and pension because we are public employees. You do what you do, we do what we do. So are you going to run for Fire Board or what?
I don't care how much firefighters in the district make, as long as there is no long term liability in the pension for taxpayers and the taxes levied on the citizens are reasonable when compared to the services they receive.
Bob, you don't seem very concerned about the state of the trust fund that will pay your benefits, why is that? Is this not something you should concern yourself with?
Beach Comber
As long as you brought up the raises in 2006, I just want to clear something up for the taxpayer's sake. When the raises were proposed (and I believe some raises were up to 27%) the two civilians working for the District at that time (myself and the fiscal officer) were told by the fire chief at that time, that we would also be included in these huge raises. When it came time to finalize the details, Mr. Abbit met with the former fire chief and told him that the support staff was not to be included in these huge raises, that we were support personnel and were not to be included because our value to the District was not the same as a firefighter. I was personnally told this by that fire chief. There was also a salary survey taken of my position and the fiscal officer's, which provided salary information that relayed that we were "underpaid" compared to other District's in the surrounding area, just like the salary survey did for the line personnel. Shortly after these raises and the former fire chief departed, the commissioners voted themselves their stipend. Just my opinion, but it appeared to me that two members who worked just as hard as the firefighters (maybe not at as high a risk level) and certainly worked more hours than the commissioners (no high risk going on there), were not included because of a commissioners opinion of support personnel.
Also, in the 2009-2012 negotiations, there were no raises negotiated, but every firefighter received an increase of 100 hours each of paid time off (in my opinion, time is money). This lead to line personnel taking more time off (I don't blame them, if you give someone more paid time off they are going to use it)and increased the overtime paid out to extraordinary amounts. So much so, that the District had to implement Adaptive Staffing in order to try to cut down on overtime.
Just wanted to clear that up for what it's worth.
Also, in the 2009-2012 negotiations, there were no raises negotiated, but every firefighter received an increase of 100 hours each of paid time off (in my opinion, time is money). This lead to line personnel taking more time off (I don't blame them, if you give someone more paid time off they are going to use it)and increased the overtime paid out to extraordinary amounts. So much so, that the District had to implement Adaptive Staffing in order to try to cut down on overtime.
Just wanted to clear that up for what it's worth.
SoWal Insider
Diane, any idea what the PTO schedule is for current firefighters? This doesn't seem to be part of the pension agreement, so I'm assuming we have some other form of agreement with the union. I wonder how all these extra benefits are tracked.
SoWal Expert
100 hours of paid time off - hell yes that is a raise!
Question - what exactly do Fire Commissioners do? I am wondering if both fire and mosquito commissioners are positions we could reduce or eliminate.
Question - what exactly do Fire Commissioners do? I am wondering if both fire and mosquito commissioners are positions we could reduce or eliminate.
Beach Comber
I used to know, but truly can't remember right now. It is public record. You can make a public records request, which is very easy or you can call the fiscal officer at the District and they may even tell you over the phone. It is not part of the pension, it is in the Union Contract (Collective Bargaining Agreement 2009-2012). There are tracking mechanisms in place for all benefits and they should be able to provide that information also quite easily.
Thanks.
I forget to mention in my earlier post that the administrative personnel did not receive the extra 100 hours and are not part of the union contract.
Thanks.
I forget to mention in my earlier post that the administrative personnel did not receive the extra 100 hours and are not part of the union contract.
Beach Comber
Glad you agree. I thought it was a poor decision to make during difficult economic times.
I have no idea what the "mosquito commissioners do", which is my own fault for not staying informed regarding taxpayer funds. I do believe they receive a stipend also, but not certain about that or any other benefits they may receive.
As for fire commissioners, I'm sure someone will get into some lengthy detail about what they do; but from what I have observed, it's not that difficult; and as all things in life, some take it very seriously and others don't appear to, but for $500 a month they should all be taking it extremely seriously. They are elected officials with responsibility for the spending of taxpayer money.
I have no idea what the "mosquito commissioners do", which is my own fault for not staying informed regarding taxpayer funds. I do believe they receive a stipend also, but not certain about that or any other benefits they may receive.
As for fire commissioners, I'm sure someone will get into some lengthy detail about what they do; but from what I have observed, it's not that difficult; and as all things in life, some take it very seriously and others don't appear to, but for $500 a month they should all be taking it extremely seriously. They are elected officials with responsibility for the spending of taxpayer money.
Beach Lover
If you want to see what the PTO chage was go to www.local3516.com and find the tab for contracts. You can see the last three contracts there and you can see the changes to the Leave sysem. under the current contract Article 14 is PTO.
Diane, I know the conventional wisdom was that when we changed over there was more Overtime becuase of the leave. I asked one day if anyone had run the numbers to see how many hours were actually used. With no suprise at all no one had. We (labor) went back and based on the daliy staffing counted up all the Unscheduled Paid time Off (which is what causes overtime) and to our suprise the year before we had the increase in leave there was 500 more hours of sick time/UPTO used. In fact with the exception of the first two months after we started the consolidation of time, the useage has been less every month than the same month the year before.
The increase in PTO that is mentioned was not just given out. If you look in previous contracts you will see that we got the same ammount of leave minus 72hrs. We asked for 3 more paid holiday days off. In the previous contract we recieved 3 paid days off for 10 recognized holidays. Admin staff gets all 10 days off including the big ones like Christmas etc. That was the increase we asked for and that was the increase given to the firefighting staff. 72 more hours a year.
Diane, I know the conventional wisdom was that when we changed over there was more Overtime becuase of the leave. I asked one day if anyone had run the numbers to see how many hours were actually used. With no suprise at all no one had. We (labor) went back and based on the daliy staffing counted up all the Unscheduled Paid time Off (which is what causes overtime) and to our suprise the year before we had the increase in leave there was 500 more hours of sick time/UPTO used. In fact with the exception of the first two months after we started the consolidation of time, the useage has been less every month than the same month the year before.
The increase in PTO that is mentioned was not just given out. If you look in previous contracts you will see that we got the same ammount of leave minus 72hrs. We asked for 3 more paid holiday days off. In the previous contract we recieved 3 paid days off for 10 recognized holidays. Admin staff gets all 10 days off including the big ones like Christmas etc. That was the increase we asked for and that was the increase given to the firefighting staff. 72 more hours a year.
Beach FanaticAuthor
I don't care how much firefighters in the district make, as long as there is no long term liability in the pension for taxpayers and the taxes levied on the citizens are reasonable when compared to the services they receive.
Bob, you don't seem very concerned about the state of the trust fund that will pay your benefits, why is that? Is this not something you should concern yourself with?
Our system is in its infancy and as time progress it is my hope that it matures and as I am not a numbers guy I leave it for those who have the responsibility to do it. I will say this, it disappointed me that while Buzz was on the Pension Board he had some what I believe were some valid questions as to the plan but as he decided to bail, I think it will be more difficult for those questions to be answered. What I do know of the plan is there are some very intelligent folks that have a fudiciary responsibility to the plan, NOT THE UNION. I feel the plan administrators who the Pension Board pay have a responsibility to the plan and the State has a certain amount of oversight, so to say I am concerned at this point no, but was hoping personally that Buzz would have stayed to get the answer to some questions he had.
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