For those who like to share

Thomas Jefferson once said, “In a free society with a government based on reason, it is inevitable that there will be no uniform opinion about important issues. Those accustomed to suppression and control by governmental authority see this as leading only to chaos. But a government of the people requires difference of opinion in order to discover truth and to take advantage of the opportunity that only understanding brings.”

I believe the Tea Party created by republicans shifted away from Thomas Jefferson and toward Alexander Hamilton who believed that the source of the opinion matters. Democrats also keep leaning more on Hamilton's belief. Hamilton believed that not everyone has the same capacity of understanding to find truth. I think Thomas Jefferson's belief is the correct way to govern. In other words ALL opinions matter AND we need to listen to them. It is easier said than done because wanting to be right about our principle may damage the methods toward truth...

I believe the Tea Party created by republicans shifted away from Thomas Jefferson and toward Alexander Hamilton who believed that the source of the opinion matters. Democrats also keep leaning more on Hamilton's belief. Hamilton believed that not everyone has the same capacity of understanding to find truth. I think Thomas Jefferson's belief is the correct way to govern. In other words ALL opinions matter AND we need to listen to them. It is easier said than done because wanting to be right about our principle may damage the methods toward truth...

“In other words ALL opinions matter AND we need to listen to them.”

False! This bothsiderism needs to stop.
There are many opinions that are based on lunacy. Covid currently being one of the most dangerous. I know even you can think of opinions that don’t merit consideration. I’ll help you get started with a simple one. How about the opinion about humans consuming horse paste as a therapy?

“In other words ALL opinions matter AND we need to listen to them.”

False! This bothsiderism needs to stop.
There are many opinions that are based on lunacy. Covid currently being one of the most dangerous. I know even you can think of opinions that don’t merit consideration. I’ll help you get started with a simple one. How about the opinion about humans consuming horse paste as a therapy?

The reason why we must listen to ALL opinions is to prevent mob behavior. Listen, learn and form an appropriate solution. Mob behavior is what Hamilton was worried about yet his methods have more potential to create than Jefferson. I understand it is hard and you have no patience with nonsense but that is not the way a democracy works. We have to tolerate some nonsense because people are human beings with false beliefs and make false assumptions. We are all in this boat sorry to disappoint!

The reason why we must listen to ALL opinions is to prevent mob behavior. Listen, learn and form an appropriate solution. Mob behavior is what Hamilton was worried about yet his methods have more potential to create than Jefferson. I understand it is hard and you have no patience with nonsense but that is not the way a democracy works. We have to tolerate some nonsense because people are human beings with false beliefs and make false assumptions. We are all in this boat sorry to disappoint!

Great!! Now tell me how democracy demands I listen to the opinions of pedophilia advocacy groups.
Your problem is you refuse to draw a line.

Great!! Now tell me how democracy demands I listen to the opinions of pedophilia advocacy groups.
Your problem is you refuse to draw a line.

Yes because I read a lot about our Civil War and the mistakes that were made on both sides. You are willing to fight and I understand that but there is a better way in my opinion.

“In other words ALL opinions matter AND we need to listen to them.”

False! This bothsiderism needs to stop.
There are many opinions that are based on lunacy. Covid currently being one of the most dangerous. I know even you can think of opinions that don’t merit consideration. I’ll help you get started with a simple one. How about the opinion about humans consuming horse paste as a therapy?

I understand and agree for the most part. But until you hear the stupid opinion or idea or thought and then judge it to be irrelevant, irresponsible or just plan stupid we just don't know. Realizing it doesn't take long to determine what bullshit is and in no way advocating pedophile, but someone wrote it and some folks read it to determine its detriment to society. It is the same as the deworming pill some rube decided was a good cure for Covid, someone saw it and said, whoa Nellie this ain't good.

I understand and agree for the most part. But until you hear the stupid opinion or idea or thought and then judge it to be irrelevant, irresponsible or just plan stupid we just don't know. Realizing it doesn't take long to determine what bullshit is and in no way advocating pedophile, but someone wrote it and some folks read it to determine its detriment to society. It is the same as the deworming pill some rube decided was a good cure for Covid, someone saw it and said, whoa Nellie this ain't good.

That is correct. We have to listen, have an exchange of thoughts and decide whether or not there is any merit to that person's perspective with which we do not agree. It is the only way we are going to ever have any sort of unity and civility again.

I understand and agree for the most part. But until you hear the stupid opinion or idea or thought and then judge it to be irrelevant, irresponsible or just plan stupid we just don't know. Realizing it doesn't take long to determine what bullshit is and in no way advocating pedophile, but someone wrote it and some folks read it to determine its detriment to society. It is the same as the deworming pill some rube decided was a good cure for Covid, someone saw it and said, whoa Nellie this ain't good.

Some idiot shouting a ridiculous opinion is a whole different animal from “all opinions matter.”

Some idiot shouting a ridiculous opinion is a whole different animal from “all opinions matter.”

Agreed

Some idiot shouting a ridiculous opinion is a whole different animal from “all opinions matter.”

Well maybe so but if a lot of people are listening to the idiot (and they are) then we got ourselves a bonafide dilemma as

Ulysses Everett McGill​

would say

I was reading the above article the other day and was shocked by what I see occurring in Florida Politics even if it is a first step in a direction. I have been following over the last few years how the State has poked their nose and usurped local governments authority to operate as they were elected to do by the Legislature changing the rules. Good example whether you agree or disagree was Customary Use.

How Did Adolf Hitler Happen?

Adolf Hitler was appointed chancellor of Germany in 1933 following a series of electoral victories by the Nazi Party. He ruled absolutely until his death by suicide in April 1945.

www.nationalww2museum.org

I was reading the above article the other day and was shocked by what I see occurring in Florida Politics even if it is a first step in a direction. I have been following over the last few years how the State has poked their nose and usurped local governments authority to operate as they were elected to do by the Legislature changing the rules. Good example whether you agree or disagree was Customary Use.

But they will wail to the heavens about communist takeover if the federal government demands something of the state.

Imagine if the State started to bully elected and appointed Judges the way they seem to do our elected local government officials.

Imagine if the State started to bully elected and appointed Judges the way they seem to do our elected local government officials.

You do not have to imagine because both Judges and Agency heads are being bullied or fired if their actions aren't meeting the expectations of those in power.

As I see it we have a Great Country with flaws but with the potential to lead humanity in a sustainable existence with our planet and with each other. However we are at a critical point created by politics where We The People will have to create a 3rd or more political party if our Democracy is to survive. The two political parties we have at the moment are not representing We The People in an ideal or effective manner. Either party have become too successful in dividing their constituents into two very bitter rival groups. I never realized just how successful until I started reading and posting in this forum. I do believe this forum is an accurate representation of the contrasting opinions and beliefs between the two parties as I have observed these opinions and beliefs outside the forum almost every day. The communication that I observe outside the forum is also very bitter and insulting between the two political ideals. On January 6th we found out what happens when bitterness leads to mob behavior. The more I look back the more I agree that the Vice President's behavior to protect our Democracy from a Totalitarian take over saved our democracy. Our Constitution was brilliantly designed to protect our Republic with checks and balances on power. So while we are becoming more disrespectful to each other we are slowly eroding away those checks and balances with hurtful insults that can not be forgiven easily. For the life of me I do not understand why our human values do not include compassion and understanding in terms of opposing political beliefs. Our discussions always erode all the way down to reference to Hitler. Conservatism and Progressivism can and should exist together. Our forefathers debated these two ideals passionately before, during and after forming the Constitution. They were motivated to do this from the experience of observing what happens to governments where power is too concentrated and corrupt. Our three branches of government were supposed to be our checks and balances. People need to be motivated to work hard and achieve but equal opportunity does not exist so we must have regulatory laws that provide for our safety and fairness. It is NOT one way or the other, my way or the highway or all about the individual. We are in this miracle of life together and we all have human flaws. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness can only be achieved if we are able to exist without bitterness. We do not have to solve our problems with such conflict that it leads to us treating those that we disagree with like enemies. Think about it. War happens when those in power want something at We The People's expense! Conflicts lead to war. Lets find a way to solve conflicts without creating enemies. It may take another political party that is able to find value in both Conservative ideals and Progressive ideals. Again, if I have learned anything about anything it is that if our species are to survive for as long as we have this planet we must resolve conflicts without creating enemies...

Today more than any others puts me in a negative frame of mind. I remember watching the first plane and thinking " this is just a fucked up accident". The second plane changed that! Then as the news reported Shanksville and the Pentagon the stark unvarnished truth hit me. As I watched those who were entering the building not knowing what was about to happen and then watching the collapse. I have participated in remembrances, I have climbed stairs, I have donated. I feel a little ashamed to admit it, but I wish I could forget. I wish I could get the images out of my brain. For me the images of those running in and then the one where people were on "The Pile" searching. Today would have been my shift day. The Day it happened I was getting off shift. I know I won't forget, but I wish I could.

As I see it we have a Great Country with flaws but with the potential to lead humanity in a sustainable existence with our planet and with each other. However we are at a critical point created by politics where We The People will have to create a 3rd or more political party if our Democracy is to survive. The two political parties we have at the moment are not representing We The People in an ideal or effective manner. Either party have become too successful in dividing their constituents into two very bitter rival groups. I never realized just how successful until I started reading and posting in this forum. I do believe this forum is an accurate representation of the contrasting opinions and beliefs between the two parties as I have observed these opinions and beliefs outside the forum almost every day. The communication that I observe outside the forum is also very bitter and insulting between the two political ideals. On January 6th we found out what happens when bitterness leads to mob behavior. The more I look back the more I agree that the Vice President's behavior to protect our Democracy from a Totalitarian take over saved our democracy. Our Constitution was brilliantly designed to protect our Republic with checks and balances on power. So while we are becoming more disrespectful to each other we are slowly eroding away those checks and balances with hurtful insults that can not be forgiven easily. For the life of me I do not understand why our human values do not include compassion and understanding in terms of opposing political beliefs. Our discussions always erode all the way down to reference to Hitler. Conservatism and Progressivism can and should exist together. Our forefathers debated these two ideals passionately before, during and after forming the Constitution. They were motivated to do this from the experience of observing what happens to governments where power is too concentrated and corrupt. Our three branches of government were supposed to be our checks and balances. People need to be motivated to work hard and achieve but equal opportunity does not exist so we must have regulatory laws that provide for our safety and fairness. It is NOT one way or the other, my way or the highway or all about the individual. We are in this miracle of life together and we all have human flaws. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness can only be achieved if we are able to exist without bitterness. We do not have to solve our problems with such conflict that it leads to us treating those that we disagree with like enemies. Think about it. War happens when those in power want something at We The People's expense! Conflicts lead to war. Lets find a way to solve conflicts without creating enemies. It may take another political party that is able to find value in both Conservative ideals and Progressive ideals. Again, if I have learned anything about anything it is that if our species are to survive for as long as we have this planet we must resolve conflicts without creating enemies...

Today’s republicans are not conservative. Conservatives would never have orchestrated or participated in the Jan 6 assault. The party has been hijacked by trump and his cult.
His middle of 5th Avenue claim was an understatement. These clowns are actually killings themselves with a contagious disease to show fealty and own the libs.
My only hope is they quickly finish the task so the rest of us can get back to normal.

Today more than any others puts me in a negative frame of mind. I remember watching the first plane and thinking " this is just a fucked up accident". The second plane changed that! Then as the news reported Shanksville and the Pentagon the stark unvarnished truth hit me. As I watched those who were entering the building not knowing what was about to happen and then watching the collapse. I have participated in remembrances, I have climbed stairs, I have donated. I feel a little ashamed to admit it, but I wish I could forget. I wish I could get the images out of my brain. For me the images of those running in and then the one where people were on "The Pile" searching. Today would have been my shift day. The Day it happened I was getting off shift. I know I won't forget, but I wish I could.

Sorry you are going through this Bob. I’m far from a conspiracy nut, but I believe there must be more to the fact fifteen of the hijackers were Saudi citizens.

General Miley
I have wrestled with this since it came out. My thought is that the Presidents VP and Cabinet have an obligation if there is an issue, 25th Amendment. At the same time, and because of the circumstances and IMO the lack of action by those Constitutionally Obligated to protect us from 1 elect official I am having difficulty in condemning General Miley. He also has a sworn oath to defend against both foreign and domestic threats whether the President would or could be considered a threat as he was elected by the people. Not going to get in to the popular vote/ electoral college debate.

Because we as a nation, and even those political appointees that surround the President, seem to be so polarized that not being canned is more important than being a voice of moderation I am afraid something such as this could become more common. I am also concerned about how someone could determine whether someone has gone off the deep end, so to speak. Consider the President Trumps military physician who is kind of a flake in his own right, IMO.

I suppose my thoughts turn to, was this military coup in the making or the least amount of intrusion by the military because of a perceived mental break by the President and NO ONE, wanted to call out and say the King Has No Clothes On! I will say this General Miley has some stones and whatever the case I believed we dodged a bullet. There were plenty of former Military members who surrounded President Trump who I was more concerned about than General Miley. I am comforted by the thought that 1 he didn't lead a coup and 2 that he may have done the minimal to be prepared in the event President Trump decided to start something. Still trying to figure it out.

General Miley
I have wrestled with this since it came out. My thought is that the Presidents VP and Cabinet have an obligation if there is an issue, 25th Amendment. At the same time, and because of the circumstances and IMO the lack of action by those Constitutionally Obligated to protect us from 1 elect official I am having difficulty in condemning General Miley. He also has a sworn oath to defend against both foreign and domestic threats whether the President would or could be considered a threat as he was elected by the people. Not going to get in to the popular vote/ electoral college debate.

Because we as a nation, and even those political appointees that surround the President, seem to be so polarized that not being canned is more important than being a voice of moderation I am afraid something such as this could become more common. I am also concerned about how someone could determine whether someone has gone off the deep end, so to speak. Consider the President Trumps military physician who is kind of a flake in his own right, IMO.

I suppose my thoughts turn to, was this military coup in the making or the least amount of intrusion by the military because of a perceived mental break by the President and NO ONE, wanted to call out and say the King Has No Clothes On! I will say this General Miley has some stones and whatever the case I believed we dodged a bullet. There were plenty of former Military members who surrounded President Trump who I was more concerned about than General Miley. I am comforted by the thought that 1 he didn't lead a coup and 2 that he may have done the minimal to be prepared in the event President Trump decided to start something. Still trying to figure it out.

It’s not just that trump is mentally unstable as Liz Cheney said many republicans would have voted to impeach if they didn’t fear for their lives. Republicans are afraid of their own base.

General Miley
I have wrestled with this since it came out. My thought is that the Presidents VP and Cabinet have an obligation if there is an issue, 25th Amendment. At the same time, and because of the circumstances and IMO the lack of action by those Constitutionally Obligated to protect us from 1 elect official I am having difficulty in condemning General Miley. He also has a sworn oath to defend against both foreign and domestic threats whether the President would or could be considered a threat as he was elected by the people. Not going to get in to the popular vote/ electoral college debate.

Because we as a nation, and even those political appointees that surround the President, seem to be so polarized that not being canned is more important than being a voice of moderation I am afraid something such as this could become more common. I am also concerned about how someone could determine whether someone has gone off the deep end, so to speak. Consider the President Trumps military physician who is kind of a flake in his own right, IMO.

I suppose my thoughts turn to, was this military coup in the making or the least amount of intrusion by the military because of a perceived mental break by the President and NO ONE, wanted to call out and say the King Has No Clothes On! I will say this General Miley has some stones and whatever the case I believed we dodged a bullet. There were plenty of former Military members who surrounded President Trump who I was more concerned about than General Miley. I am comforted by the thought that 1 he didn't lead a coup and 2 that he may have done the minimal to be prepared in the event President Trump decided to start something. Still trying to figure it out.

Bob we should remember what Milley had just witnessed when we judge his actions.
The commander in chief had just instigated an insurrection, including targeting his own VP, against his own government to interrupt the certification of a free and fair election. He then retreated to watch it on tv in orgasmic delight refusing repeated calls by lawmakers to end it.
At the same time congressional republicans were also attempting to halt the constitutional process that had been certified by all fifty US states.

Bob we should remember what Milley had just witnessed when we judge his actions.
The commander in chief had just instigated an insurrection, including targeting his own VP, against his own government to interrupt the certification of a free and fair election. He then retreated to watch it on tv in orgasmic delight refusing repeated calls by lawmakers to end it.
At the same time congressional republicans were also attempting to halt the constitutional process that had been certified by all fifty US states.

I truly understand your points.

Bob we should remember what Milley had just witnessed when we judge his actions.
The commander in chief had just instigated an insurrection, including targeting his own VP, against his own government to interrupt the certification of a free and fair election. He then retreated to watch it on tv in orgasmic delight refusing repeated calls by lawmakers to end it.
At the same time congressional republicans were also attempting to halt the constitutional process that had been certified by all fifty US states.

Poppaj, what do I say to people who equate this with toppling a statue or destroying property in a legitimate civil rights protest that gets out of hand?

Poppaj, what do I say to people who equate this with toppling a statue or destroying property in a legitimate civil rights protest that gets out of hand?

Yea that’s a tough one because in trumper logic it’s same same.
I have yet to see any of us defend property destruction or claim uber patriotism for doing so. In fact those arrested for it have been tried, convicted, and sentenced.

I have had time to reflect on my votes in my life, coming to the conclusion, that I am good with them. In the past there have been discussions about how I voted and why, in particular the 2016 election. I made a statement about the former President Trump that I thought he was a fascist in the making. Because I couldn't get past my issues with Secretary Clinton I voted 3rd party. Some folks couldn't understand my vote. The more I haved dwelt upon it and not changing my position on my vote and why, this is a conclusion I have come too. Popular vote Clinton beat Trump. The problem is Popular Vote doesn't always win elections. These last 2 Presidential elections are a case in point. Trump did not win the popular vote in either election. When these campaigns run they have to reach certain districts/ areas. Biden did what Clinton didn't. My take aways for me. The Party has to find a Candidate who appeals to the voters in certain areas. #2 third Party Candidates didn't hurt Clinton, she won the popular vote. 3rd Party hurt Clinton in Florida. Even this election I bought into the idea that voting 3rd party would be detrimental to the election. If the Electoral College is ever done away with, me voting 3rd Party will probably never impact an election. Florida voted for Trump by 371686 in 2020. Not an insignificant number when you compare the Governors elections over the past 12 years. To close, I am willing to be a tad bit more open to possibilities even when I am not a fan of the Candidate, but voting 3rd Party is a distinct possibility in every election for me.