This morning as my wife and I were returing form a shoreline walk we saw county officials asking a couple of men to move their "set up" from infront of The Retreat at Blue Mountain Beach. About an hour later my wife saw him being led from the beach in handcuffs for tresspassing. One of the men was taking pictures... maybe we'll see them post them here.
I know from reading previous posts that this is a hot button issue but it seems that some want to enforce the "letter of the law". I saw where they were placed and it was close to the water line very near the boundry of the Inn at Blue Mountain. They seemed to minding their own business. As the sherriff left I happened to walk by them and heard "I think it was the right call... where the wet sand meets the dry".
I'm confused, the beachgoers were were set up outside of the posted signs. If the owners really want to keep people out can they fence in their beach? (not that I'd want to see that)
In the many years of coming to SoWal I've always been impressed with the civility of residents and tourists -- although I have heard some horror stories. We abolutely love it here and treat it as though we already live here. But I was very surprised that it seems the owners are calling the country for what seems such a small infraction -- seems like a waste.
This was the second day in a row that I saw county officials inforcing the private beach rule.
Is the pendulum swinging?
Replies
962
SoWal Expert
Does the Retreat allow rentals? I am not positive but I think it is like Draper Lake and does not so the Retreat Security Guard would probably know who was "supposed" to be there, especially since it is not built out too much.
per Article VII, section 27 of The Retreat's C & R's, leasing of entire homes is allowed, but not for periods of less than one month. However, no dog is allowed to excrete on the common property :funn:and cat ownership in The Retreat is highly discouraged. (I'm not making this up. Read through the 110 page document and you will see what I'm talking about.)
SoWal Expert
Has anyone read the legal description for The Retreat? The legal description for the southernmost line reads, "...thence meander said approximate Mean High Water Line (of the Gulf of Mexico)...
My question is, how close is "approximate?" In the case of the people sitting on dry sand with their feet on wet sand, I think they would have a strong case based only on the legal description reading "meander said approximate MHWL. What do you think?
My question is, how close is "approximate?" In the case of the people sitting on dry sand with their feet on wet sand, I think they would have a strong case based only on the legal description reading "meander said approximate MHWL. What do you think?
Edited
Beach Fanatic
This whole debacle is just another classic example of how backwards Florida property laws are.
As far as I know, and I haven't researched all coastal communities nationwide, but the ocean beaches in other States that I have vacationed, the State owns the beach.
Go to a Caribbean Island like Barbados, same thing. A billion dollar hotel can be erected, but any Bajan can walk and set up beach gear right in front of that hotel without recourse.
It never struck me to ask when I bought property in Sowal if a beach was public or private, a natural resouce!
I don't feel that a gulffront property owners/deeded beach access should have riparian rights further than being able to walk to the water without obstruction, and by obstruction I mean a permanent fixture blocking that egress.
This whole thing is silly. It's like purchasing property next to the airport, then complaining that the airport is noisy and it should shut down.
Wellllll duh.... the airport was there when you bought the place in plain view.
And so were people on the beach. Probably some of those very property owners who are complaining. It was OK for them to use whatever beach they wanted, then.... they became owners so it isn't ok for anyone else to be on "their" beach. Now that they own a house or condo, they feel like they own the entire area.
As for the remark one poster made about paying big money to stay at a Gulf front unit, are you saying people who are not as fortunate as you and can't afford to pay for a Gulf front unit are less value as a visitor as yourself and should be treated as second class citizens? I think not.
But what I do think is that it is that arrogant and pompous attitude that has made this area less desirable than it used to be for both tourist and local residents.
Edited
SoWal Expert
So per the TDC memo, we just spent millions of dollars to renourish beaches that are predominantly private!
If I go to the beach I need to stay within the 5'-0" easement the walkway and stairs are on? I don't think so! The area they say I am "allowed on" is smaller than the area of the walkway/stairs they just finished replacing!
Pgurney - preventing someone from parking in your driveway and preventing someone from accessing your "private" beach are not the same thing. Your driveway is a finite and specialized space. Someone else parking in it curtails your activities. The beach stretches for miles w/ only minor variations and someone sitting on one patch of sand does not prevent someone else from using another nearby patch.
TDC better get a clue!
If I go to the beach I need to stay within the 5'-0" easement the walkway and stairs are on? I don't think so! The area they say I am "allowed on" is smaller than the area of the walkway/stairs they just finished replacing!
Pgurney - preventing someone from parking in your driveway and preventing someone from accessing your "private" beach are not the same thing. Your driveway is a finite and specialized space. Someone else parking in it curtails your activities. The beach stretches for miles w/ only minor variations and someone sitting on one patch of sand does not prevent someone else from using another nearby patch.
TDC better get a clue!
Beach Lover
Hmmmm.....lots of interesting posts here. I've learned a lot on this message board about the problem and figured I'd put my two cents in.
About the Retreat, not all is happy and rosy over there. I find it very
interesting that the Retreat is working so hard to keep everyone off
'their' beach when they still haven't done anything to replenish their
dunes. It looks horrible. We owned there before the assessments were
sent out to every home/lot owner over there to pay for the beach
renourishment. Evidently there are two holdouts who refuse to pay
and last I heard leins were going to be put on their properties. I know
that to be a fact; I have recently heard that the Retreat has stopped
paying taxes on that common-use recreation area that we all call the
Retreat beach. Does that mean that we can now/eventually use it?
I'll be interested to hear how that turns out.
About the Blue Mountain Village access to the beach just to the west
of the Inn...many of you know that the Inn and the Village were once
owned by the same group. When we first bought in the Village we used
all the amenities at the Inn, the pool, workout room, etc. As the two
properties became independent (or whatever) there was much bad
blood and that's why we now have this pissing contest. Everyone at
the Inn knew of plans to build across 30-A (it had already begun) and
for those units to use the beach at the Inn. Period. It's as simple as
that. Cottages south of 30-A, such as ours, have ALWAYS been able
to use that beach and I'm not stopping now. And I'm not bringing a
Stanley tape measure in my beach bag.
I honestly don't know why we just can't all get along about this. I
know that sounds simple-minded, but we've got one group that can't
clean up/restore its 'own' beach or pay the appropriate taxes for it
but yet wants to spend lots of time and money to keep people off of
it. Then we have another group that is surprised and pissed off that
people are using an access to use a beach that they've been doing
for years, at least since 2004, when I believe the access was built.
I'm going down on Sunday and will do lots of looking around and will
report back. Look forward to reading the Walton Sun article, too.
About the Retreat, not all is happy and rosy over there. I find it very
interesting that the Retreat is working so hard to keep everyone off
'their' beach when they still haven't done anything to replenish their
dunes. It looks horrible. We owned there before the assessments were
sent out to every home/lot owner over there to pay for the beach
renourishment. Evidently there are two holdouts who refuse to pay
and last I heard leins were going to be put on their properties. I know
that to be a fact; I have recently heard that the Retreat has stopped
paying taxes on that common-use recreation area that we all call the
Retreat beach. Does that mean that we can now/eventually use it?
I'll be interested to hear how that turns out.
About the Blue Mountain Village access to the beach just to the west
of the Inn...many of you know that the Inn and the Village were once
owned by the same group. When we first bought in the Village we used
all the amenities at the Inn, the pool, workout room, etc. As the two
properties became independent (or whatever) there was much bad
blood and that's why we now have this pissing contest. Everyone at
the Inn knew of plans to build across 30-A (it had already begun) and
for those units to use the beach at the Inn. Period. It's as simple as
that. Cottages south of 30-A, such as ours, have ALWAYS been able
to use that beach and I'm not stopping now. And I'm not bringing a
Stanley tape measure in my beach bag.
I honestly don't know why we just can't all get along about this. I
know that sounds simple-minded, but we've got one group that can't
clean up/restore its 'own' beach or pay the appropriate taxes for it
but yet wants to spend lots of time and money to keep people off of
it. Then we have another group that is surprised and pissed off that
people are using an access to use a beach that they've been doing
for years, at least since 2004, when I believe the access was built.
I'm going down on Sunday and will do lots of looking around and will
report back. Look forward to reading the Walton Sun article, too.
SoWal Expert
About the Retreat, not all is happy and rosy over there. I find it very
interesting that the Retreat is working so hard to keep everyone off
'their' beach when they still haven't done anything to replenish their
dunes. It looks horrible. We owned there before the assessments were
sent out to every home/lot owner over there to pay for the beach
renourishment. Evidently there are two holdouts who refuse to pay
and last I heard leins were going to be put on their properties.
The liens are public record and can be found on the Clerk of Courts' site. I was scanning through them last night and noticed what I thought to be an excessive number of liens in The Retreat for failure to pay association dues, interest, and legal fees for collecting the past due amounts. Some of the liens I read, were for amounts just under $4000 and some were just over $9000.
Maybe some of these people don't want to pay the security guard???
EDIT:
I just double checked the Clerk of Courts' site, and there were 16 liens issued in 2006 to the property owners of the 90 lots in The Retreat. That is 18% of the owners with liens filed in 2006. There is one other which was filed in 2002. Keep in mind that some of these liens may have been dismissed if the balances due were paid off, and that would be under a different page, not noted on the actual lien.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
I knew of some Stallworth property having a sign posted on the beach last year. Are you referring directly to the Inn at BMtn and The Retreat?
The Inn has had a guard for longer than just this year, I am not sure how long.
Beach Fanatic
not true -- no restrooms at Van Ness Butler, Jr., unless you are counting the port-a-john in the parking lot, which has been overturned for a couple of weeks now. Who is proofing the TDC's statements?
Nothing like a ten foot strip of beach, with umbrellas and chairs twenty rows deep.
Well, that certainly cleared up everything for everyone.
Maybe we should have a walk-a-thonand wear mighty-tighties.
SJ:
I think you misread the access statement. It said "with parking and restrooms at....." Then it said "Parking is also available at ...Van Ness...."
SoWal Expert
SJ:You are correct. I stand corrected. Now about that over-turned port-a-john in the public parking lot at Van Ness Butler, Jr... Who is in charge of that one? I don't think WaterColor and Seaside want visitors peeing in the bushes.
I think you misread the access statement. It said "with parking and restrooms at....." Then it said "Parking is also available at ...Van Ness...."
SoWal Expert
"breaking news" from the Walton Sun:
South Walton resident responds to arrests: Says beach is public
July 09, 2007
John Ritch Dear editor,
I?m afraid your article is somewhat misleading. You might want to do a story or at least some more investigating on this subject as it directly affects tourism in South Walton.
The beach this man was arrested on is not private.
There is a deeded public beach access located between The Blue Mountain Beach Inn and The Retreat.
The plat of the Retreat clearly shows the mean high water line well over 25 feet from the current tide line we had on July 8.
This security guard has continually harassed paying tourists as well as locals that use this beach access.
The officers have no legal rights to arrest anyone that is on the beach within the mean high water line. (Go to the courthouse and see for yourself where that line is documented.), let alone have this security guard make people leave the beach (Have seen him ?kick off? uninformed tourists) or move.
Please take a trip for yourself down to this PUBLIC beach access and see what is going on.
Tell me what is a better site to see on the beach, tourists enjoying themselves contributing to our economy or a beach riddled with signs every five feet regarding private property and a security guard harassing every family down there.
Please let me know your thoughts on this story. Believe me, I?ve seen numerous tourists that have conveyed they will not be coming back to vacation in South Walton due to these events.
South Walton resident responds to arrests: Says beach is public
July 09, 2007
John Ritch Dear editor,
I?m afraid your article is somewhat misleading. You might want to do a story or at least some more investigating on this subject as it directly affects tourism in South Walton.
The beach this man was arrested on is not private.
There is a deeded public beach access located between The Blue Mountain Beach Inn and The Retreat.
The plat of the Retreat clearly shows the mean high water line well over 25 feet from the current tide line we had on July 8.
This security guard has continually harassed paying tourists as well as locals that use this beach access.
The officers have no legal rights to arrest anyone that is on the beach within the mean high water line. (Go to the courthouse and see for yourself where that line is documented.), let alone have this security guard make people leave the beach (Have seen him ?kick off? uninformed tourists) or move.
Please take a trip for yourself down to this PUBLIC beach access and see what is going on.
Tell me what is a better site to see on the beach, tourists enjoying themselves contributing to our economy or a beach riddled with signs every five feet regarding private property and a security guard harassing every family down there.
Please let me know your thoughts on this story. Believe me, I?ve seen numerous tourists that have conveyed they will not be coming back to vacation in South Walton due to these events.
Beach Fanatic
I have always firmly believed the beaches are for all of us to enjoy. The edge of the bluff or the edge of the dunes should be the property line for beach front homeowners. Even this "mean high tide waterline" rule is ridiculous.
When you pay for beach front you are paying for the view and the risk of being washed away in a hurricane, you're not paying for the beach behind you. Trying to own the beach is like trying to own the sky.
I would proudly be arrested for walking on the beach anywhere on the "Beaches of South Walton." Get it? The Beaches of South Walton. Do we need to change the name of the place?
Dave, "come and get me" Rauschkolb.
When you pay for beach front you are paying for the view and the risk of being washed away in a hurricane, you're not paying for the beach behind you. Trying to own the beach is like trying to own the sky.
I would proudly be arrested for walking on the beach anywhere on the "Beaches of South Walton." Get it? The Beaches of South Walton. Do we need to change the name of the place?
Dave, "come and get me" Rauschkolb.
Beach Fanatic
Uh, oh. The house we rented for August advertised "200 steps to the beach". It did not, however, say "200 steps to the public beach". Does this mean I shouldn't even bother trying to go to the beach near the house?Hey, that's exactly what my ad says. I better change it to 199
My neighbor's ad says 150 I believe. 
It's all in the size of the steps ;-) I also better add public now Yeah scooterbug, as much taxes as we pay down there we oughta be able to sit our keesters WE it lands! ;-)Beach Fanatic
I just double checked the Clerk of Courts' site, and there were 16 liens issued in 2006 to the property owners of the 90 lots in The Retreat. That is 18% of the owners with liens filed in 2006. There is one other which was filed in 2002. Keep in mind that some of these liens may have been dismissed if the balances due were paid off, and that would be under a different page, not noted on the actual lien.
I wonder where all those "deep pockets" BMBV insist exists in The Retreat are now?
If they won't even pay the assessments or dues, what makes you think they would contribute to a law suit??SoWal Expert
I would proudly be arrested for walking on the beach anywhere on the "Beaches of South Walton." Get it? The Beaches of South Walton. Do we need to change the name of the place?
Admin
At the risk of being the voice of reason, let me say "relax". While the situation at the Retreat is serious to those involved, it does not reflect what is happening on the vast majority of SoWal beaches.
I believe most gulf front owners are live and let live. Unfortunately though, as hotter heads prevail, gulf front owners will be forced to defend their positions and become exclusive. So again I say "relax".
I believe most gulf front owners are live and let live. Unfortunately though, as hotter heads prevail, gulf front owners will be forced to defend their positions and become exclusive. So again I say "relax".
Beach Fanatic
So per the TDC memo, we just spent millions of dollars to renourish beaches that are predominantly private!
I think the TDC got the footage incorrect. Instead of 35-40 feet, at least 100 feet was added to the beach and all that should be public property.
Beach Fanatic
I have always firmly believed the beaches are for all of us to enjoy. The edge of the bluff or the edge of the dunes should be the property line for beach front homeowners. Even this "mean high tide waterline" rule is ridiculous.
When you pay for beach front you are paying for the view and the risk of being washed away in a hurricane, you're not paying for the beach behind you. Trying to own the beach is like trying to own the sky.
I would proudly be arrested for walking on the beach anywhere on the "Beaches of South Walton." Get it? The Beaches of South Walton. Do we need to change the name of the place?
Dave, "come and get me" Rauschkolb.
Quote of the year!SoWal Expert
At the risk of being the voice of reason, let me say "relax". While the situation at the Retreat is serious to those involved, it does not reflect what is happening on the vast majority of SoWal beaches.
I believe most gulf front owners are live and let live. Unfortunately though, as hotter heads prevail, gulf front owners will be forced to defend their positions and become exclusive. So again I say "relax".
It began as an easily avoidable problem in a limited area (at least for the locals) but is rapidly escalating. The latest issued by the TDC shows that the official position is changing in a way that will seriously affect the lifestyles and livelihoods of everyone around here.
Well thought out and researched opposition is necessary.
Beach Fanatic
Well said and intuitive Kurt; you are wise beyond your years. True, most homeowners are fine with anyone behind their beach but I have to agree with scooterbug, we have to have be vocal and involved so the existing ridiculous law is not altered to further restrict access.
We have to at least protect the right to walk on the beach and place our beach chairs in the wet sand and dangle our toes in the water on ANY beach we want to up to the mean high tide waterline.
It is good the TDC is educating folks on what the current law is. It is unfortunate this is even a conversation. In Costa Rica and many countries ALL the beaches are public property. Land of the free?
We have to at least protect the right to walk on the beach and place our beach chairs in the wet sand and dangle our toes in the water on ANY beach we want to up to the mean high tide waterline.
It is good the TDC is educating folks on what the current law is. It is unfortunate this is even a conversation. In Costa Rica and many countries ALL the beaches are public property. Land of the free?
At the risk of being the voice of reason, let me say "relax". While the situation at the Retreat is serious to those involved, it does not reflect what is happening on the vast majority of SoWal beaches.
I believe most gulf front owners are live and let live. Unfortunately though, as hotter heads prevail, gulf front owners will be forced to defend their positions and become exclusive. So again I say "relax".
SoWal Expert
As someone else asked earlier, who wants to lie down on a wet beach towel?
Also, who wants to set up their beach chair on a slope of wet sand with water sinking it deeper in the sand?
Also, who wants to set up their beach chair on a slope of wet sand with water sinking it deeper in the sand?
Edited
Beach Fanatic
As someone else asked earlier, who wants to lie down on a wet beach towel?SJ, I kind of like to set my chair in the wet sand and let the surf wash over my feet and then after a while move back or forwadr depending on the tide. Not trying to be a smart a** here but that is one of the pleasures of sitting on the beach.
Also, who wants to set up their beach chair on a slope of wet sand with water sinking it deeper in the sand?
SoWal Expert
SJ, I kind of like to set my chair in the wet sand and let the surf wash over my feet and then after a while move back or forwadr depending on the tide. Not trying to be a smart a** here but that is one of the pleasures of sitting on the beach.So is having a chair that doesn't wash out to sea during the day ;-).
A chair w/ tootsies in the sea is great - reading a book, sunning, or people watching on a wet towel while waves wash over you not so much!
SoWal Expert
SJ, I kind of like to set my chair in the wet sand and let the surf wash over my feet and then after a while move back or forwadr depending on the tide. Not trying to be a smart a** here but that is one of the pleasures of sitting on the beach.I hear you. Just noticing maybe two out of 200 people who set up in the surf, I think the majority of people would prefer to be on the dryer sand, especially those lying on towels.
Beach Fanatic
You are correct. I stand corrected. Now about that over-turned port-a-john in the public parking lot at Van Ness Butler, Jr... Who is in charge of that one? I don't think WaterColor and Seaside want visitors peeing in the bushes.
I know someone over there that can check it out. It's probably the construction company hired to rebuild the parking lot and restroom. Based on what I've heard, they are starting this week or have already started.
Edited
Beach Fanatic
I hear you. Just noticing maybe two out of 200 people who set up in the surf, I think the majority of people would prefer to be on the dryer sand, especially those lying on towels.I just never found it appealing to lay on a towel in the sand. I would rather sit on a beach chair. That way I am aware of what is going on around me unless I end up snoozing.
Checking your forum account
Please wait while we verify your forum account.