Led away in Handcuffs
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If armoring had not been constructed on public property in some cases, the MHWL might be past some people's living rooms and into their bedrooms in the future.
Real shocker!!
;-)In the summer I said I wasn't sure. Now I'm sure.
SJ, assuming it never belonged to the county, it doesn't concern you or me. It becomes a private civil matter if there is any problem in the first place with the seawalls. Why do you insist on re-inventing the legal wheel on every subject you disagree with?
You also won't grasp the concept of MHWL saying that it has to be proven each time. You should be taking this up with the sheriff and his boss. They somehow figured it out when the person refused to leave the private beach. And I imagine they were flexible and reasonable in their interpretation of the MHWL that favored the "trespasser".
FWIW, yes, I would have a problem running someone off if their towel or chair was innocently only a foot or two from the wet sand line. An obvious differentiation would be an 8x8 foot tent spread out over private beach and the like.
I think its all been said now.
I'm with BeachSiO2. Let's let this all rest for now.
Deal? You can have the last word.We'll start another thread when the Supreme Court ruling is handed down.
Happy Holidays.
Last word!
Nice new avatar SJ they are giving birth to beach front property owners brains.Nice edit Mr Kurt, I bet BMBV slept with the night light on!!!!
Nice edit Mr Kurt, I bet BMBV slept with the night light on!!!!
Private Beach
Even if the beach is nourished by pumping sand from the Gulf by machine, why would you think that their would be no more charges of Trespass? Nourishment will not stop people from trying to run people off the beach.
Maybe the push has more to do with getting "FREE" money from FEMA, for future renourishment.
From instrument # 1011222 filed in September, 2007: "....will not interfere with the normal use and enjoyment of said beach area by any owner of property in Blue Mountain Beach Subdivision No. 1."
EDIT: "You stand corrected" because you found the snapshot of the above instrument in my photo files and just had to post it before I could finish the above post. Just so everyone understands who is correcting who or whom or whomever or whatever.
I'm not sure if I can ask an "innocent and sincere" question on this thread,but here goes...
I heard recently (last week maybe) on the local news "fill-in" portion of the NPR morning news that the US Army Corps of Engineers was working on a feasibility study (with input from Walton Co TDC) for beach re-nourishment for Walton County beaches between Topsail Preserve and Seagrove (I think) due to beach erosion. IF this is true AND they actually spend the $40 to $60 million that they are currently planning what affect does this have on the Public vs. Private dilemma? I know how this was addressed in Okaloosa Co and Walton Co up to Topsail, at least I think I know. Does that represent legal precedence?
As a matter of disclaimer: I live in Blue Mountain Beach and frequented the contested area this past Summer, we moved here June 1, 2007. I didn't hear of the Public vs. Private debate until October, and after hearing of it I was always respectful of the wet sand line as I would jog from the Co Rd 83 access to the East to the Redfish Lake outflow. No one ever seemed overly interested that I was there and I usually said good morning to those that I saw - if I wasn't out of breath.
I have a conflicting opinion on this issue. A) I have strong Libertarian beliefs that lead me to advocate for private property rights and see a very narrow window for eminent domain seizures if any window at all. B) The concept of owning THE (emphasis added in sarcasm) Beach has never occurred to me previous to moving here. I guess (maybe) I can see a difference in owning lake front real estate that has limited movement in the water/land line (discounting the recent drought conditions in many areas) and the Gulf/Ocean front real estate that is in a constant state of movement. For example, in my beach jogging excursions this Summer and Fall I noticed that the "white sand" area of the beach moved more than 25 feet inland in some areas due to erosion. I can also find many examples of the courts finding "abandonment" with similar scenarios of long term usage by the public. How many times has the property owner added sand? How many times has the government? Whose sand is there now? It's all too ambiguous.
All that said I truly am an "innocent" bystander... at least I was.
And I really want the thoughts of others on what happens if the COE and TDC re-nourish THE Beach.
One further thought - I think the TDC and the county have been hoping renourishment would solve the public vs private dilemma, it the court case doesn't derail the whole thing or produce some new rules. But IMHO they have dropped the ball by allowing those Surfside signs to remain there.
Even if the beach is nourished by pumping sand from the Gulf by machine, why would you think that their would be no more charges of Trespass? Nourishment will not stop people from trying to run people off the beach.
Maybe the push has more to do with getting "FREE" money from FEMA, for future renourishment.
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Re: Private Beach
Can you imagine 10 years from now? Growth beyond our wildest expectations and then the beaches (beyond the Erosion Control Line) are suddenly wiped out from a hurricane. All of a sudden, the public beaches become private again until they are renourished.
How long will it take the beaches to get renoursihed? Where do the thousands of upland tourists go until then? How much money will it cost then to renourish? What quality of sand will be available? Are we going to settle for off-quality sand for the sake of tourism? Will private property owners get compensated if they were to allow tourists to use the beach north of the ECL until then?
Lots of questions - a little like Pandora's box.
Call me crazy. And like I said, the Florida Supreme Court will decide that aspect.
Now you're getting somewhere..."FREE" money to assist in the ongoing confiscation (after future erosion) of private property after the initial confiscation to make sure the beach continually extends past the initial Erosion Control Line all in an effort to support upland beach tourism.
Can you imagine 10 years from now? Growth beyond our wildest expectations and then the beaches (beyond the Erosion Control Line) are suddenly wiped out from a hurricane. All of a sudden, the public beaches become private again until they are renourished.
How long will it take the beaches to get renoursihed? Where do the thousands of upland tourists go until then? How much money will it cost then to renourish? What quality of sand will be available? Are we going to settle for off-quality sand for the sake of tourism? Will private property owners get compensated if they were to allow tourists to use the beach north of the ECL until then?
Lots of questions - a little like Pandora's box.
Just a guess, but the tourists will likely continue using the same beach which they have for years.
Here are some new changes in enforcement. I like those apples. Finally, they decided to listen to my idea. It should be up to the person filing the complaint to prove that a trespass exists, prior to someone being arrested, locked in jail. Otherwise, anyone could charge anyone else with trespassing just to have the other person arrested and locked in jail. 
From www.waltonsun.com
County looks to dodge beach privatization bullet
By Sean Boone sean_boone@link.freedom.com
In July 2007, a visitor from Atlanta was arrested for not leaving a private beach property near The Retreat subdivision in Blue Mountain Beach. That arrest sparked controversy over what and where is deemed off limits to the public on South Walton beaches.
At the time of the incident, the Walton County Sheriff’s Office was enforcing the wet sand line as to where a person could legally sit or loiter in front of a private beach. But since the incident, the WCSO is now enforcing a state attorney’s code that requires proof of representative authority.
According to a state attorney’s document sent to the WCSO in August 2007, a representative of the property or property owner must obtain a sworn statement from the complainant that includes the exact latitude/longitude of the trespass and have proper photographs to show landmarks around where the trespass took place.
Captain Eddie Farris of the WCSO said their enforcement would continue to adhere to what the state attorney asks of them.
“As long as we meet the state attorney’s request,” he said. “We will go by what they say.”
Under the new code, the wet sand enforcement would also be changed requiring an owner to provide the plot of the mean-high-tide area over a 19-year period.
The 1974 City of Daytona Beach v. Tona-Rama Inc. case brought beach privatization into full light, ruling that property that historically had been used as public access, could not be deemed private.
But many gray areas remain as to what is historic public access in the state of Florida.
Recently, Walton and Okaloosa County beach renourishment efforts have raised questions over what is the private beach owner’s rightful land and what is part of public beach after additional sand is added that extends property.
A lawsuit from three homeowners challenging the state’s erosion control permit was heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in April 2007, but a decision in the matter has not yet been tendered.
South Walton Tourist Development Beach Maintenance Manager David Sell said in a recent e-mail that the Remove It Or Lose It program, which removes items left on county beaches overnight, would not be able to patrol renourished beaches in the western end of the county until the Supreme Court ruling is made to determine if the area of beach is private or public.
“It is the county position that it should be public from the CCL (Coastal Construction Line) to the water,” he said. “However, we must wait to hear how the courts rule on it.”
Last year, Edgewater Condominiums in Miramar Beach fi led suit against Walton County after threats were made to remove their volleyball net, which was seen as a removable item under the TDC’s program.
“Since the code said chairs, tents, toys etc., Edgewater management thought the county had over-stepped its authority,” said Edgewater President Suzanne Harris. “Edgewater thought it was selective enforcement because an investigation by our attorney found there were many volleyball nets that had not been tagged, such as the one at the Whale’s Tail restaurant that was (on) public beach.”
BEACH SAFETY
LOOPHOLE
The South Walton Fire District’s Beach Safety program currently patrols more than 26 miles of beaches in South Walton. Much of the patrolling is done by roving (vehicles) below the high tide mark of private beaches.
“The majority of our responses are on private beaches,” said SWFD Beach Safety Director Gary Wise. “Without roving patrol west of Pompano Joe’s there would be no response (on west end of county beaches).”
Walton County currently has eight public beach accesses with lifeguard towers, but according to Wise many of the private beach areas have the worst rip currents.
“Two of the worst rip current areas are in Miramar Beach (on private property),” he said. “There are 26 miles of beach. Divide that by eight and you don’t have an ideal mathematical equation.”
Wise said his lifeguards were involved with 45 rescues and more than 50 assists (helped from the water) during Memorial Day weekend – many of who were swimming in front of private beach properties.
Private beach property creates a tricky legal situation for Walton County authorities. (Sean Boone/ The Sun)
From www.waltonsun.com
County looks to dodge beach privatization bullet
By Sean Boone sean_boone@link.freedom.com
In July 2007, a visitor from Atlanta was arrested for not leaving a private beach property near The Retreat subdivision in Blue Mountain Beach. That arrest sparked controversy over what and where is deemed off limits to the public on South Walton beaches.
At the time of the incident, the Walton County Sheriff’s Office was enforcing the wet sand line as to where a person could legally sit or loiter in front of a private beach. But since the incident, the WCSO is now enforcing a state attorney’s code that requires proof of representative authority.
According to a state attorney’s document sent to the WCSO in August 2007, a representative of the property or property owner must obtain a sworn statement from the complainant that includes the exact latitude/longitude of the trespass and have proper photographs to show landmarks around where the trespass took place.
Captain Eddie Farris of the WCSO said their enforcement would continue to adhere to what the state attorney asks of them.
“As long as we meet the state attorney’s request,” he said. “We will go by what they say.”
Under the new code, the wet sand enforcement would also be changed requiring an owner to provide the plot of the mean-high-tide area over a 19-year period.
The 1974 City of Daytona Beach v. Tona-Rama Inc. case brought beach privatization into full light, ruling that property that historically had been used as public access, could not be deemed private.
But many gray areas remain as to what is historic public access in the state of Florida.
Recently, Walton and Okaloosa County beach renourishment efforts have raised questions over what is the private beach owner’s rightful land and what is part of public beach after additional sand is added that extends property.
A lawsuit from three homeowners challenging the state’s erosion control permit was heard by the U.S. Supreme Court in April 2007, but a decision in the matter has not yet been tendered.
South Walton Tourist Development Beach Maintenance Manager David Sell said in a recent e-mail that the Remove It Or Lose It program, which removes items left on county beaches overnight, would not be able to patrol renourished beaches in the western end of the county until the Supreme Court ruling is made to determine if the area of beach is private or public.
“It is the county position that it should be public from the CCL (Coastal Construction Line) to the water,” he said. “However, we must wait to hear how the courts rule on it.”
Last year, Edgewater Condominiums in Miramar Beach fi led suit against Walton County after threats were made to remove their volleyball net, which was seen as a removable item under the TDC’s program.
“Since the code said chairs, tents, toys etc., Edgewater management thought the county had over-stepped its authority,” said Edgewater President Suzanne Harris. “Edgewater thought it was selective enforcement because an investigation by our attorney found there were many volleyball nets that had not been tagged, such as the one at the Whale’s Tail restaurant that was (on) public beach.”
BEACH SAFETY
LOOPHOLE
The South Walton Fire District’s Beach Safety program currently patrols more than 26 miles of beaches in South Walton. Much of the patrolling is done by roving (vehicles) below the high tide mark of private beaches.
“The majority of our responses are on private beaches,” said SWFD Beach Safety Director Gary Wise. “Without roving patrol west of Pompano Joe’s there would be no response (on west end of county beaches).”
Walton County currently has eight public beach accesses with lifeguard towers, but according to Wise many of the private beach areas have the worst rip currents.
“Two of the worst rip current areas are in Miramar Beach (on private property),” he said. “There are 26 miles of beach. Divide that by eight and you don’t have an ideal mathematical equation.”
Wise said his lifeguards were involved with 45 rescues and more than 50 assists (helped from the water) during Memorial Day weekend – many of who were swimming in front of private beach properties.
Private beach property creates a tricky legal situation for Walton County authorities. (Sean Boone/ The Sun)
sos......
Seems symptomatic of the larger inquisition we're all paying for.
When somebody washes up on a surf board & points a finger North of where they bumped their ride; it's like: "Well I surely don't own the gulf....(today)
dirty crayloa fingered local
Seems symptomatic of the larger inquisition we're all paying for.
When somebody washes up on a surf board & points a finger North of where they bumped their ride; it's like: "Well I surely don't own the gulf....(today)
dirty crayloa fingered local