Should public schools paddle kids?

[NoHall]

To get back on track ( the thread is about paddling at public school), let's get this nastiness out of our school system and move forward into the modern times. ;-) Please write your school board members and tell them you do not support the school position of allowing paddling with parental consent. It is a bad practice that needs to be eliminated from our school system.

For all I know, they may already be considering removing the paddling option like Okaloosa- let's hope so.

Sorry...wasn't trying to derail...

I'm interested because, like I mentioned early on, we recently had an administrator who lost his job over paddling even though it's legal in Georgia. As I said, it was not the parents who called the police and DFACS; our own administration called them.

Do the schools who have NOT banned paddling still paddle students? Obviously it should not be allowed--no question. Even knowing that it is legal, I would not dare attempt it. (That's how I got off track, so that's where I'll shut up this time!)

 

[GoodWitch58]

To get back on track ( the thread is about paddling at public school), let's get this nastiness out of our school system and move forward into the modern times. ;-) Please write your school board members and tell them you do not support the school position of allowing paddling with parental consent. It is a bad practice that needs to be eliminated from our school system.

For all I know, they may already be considering removing the paddling option like Okaloosa- let's hope so.

Thanks, Jdarg.

The thread sure veered off track...I sent my letters the other day. I too hope they are considering removing the option. I have not had a reply from anyone yet.

 

[Jdarg]

Sorry...wasn't trying to derail...

I'm interested because, like I mentioned early on, we recently had an administrator who lost his job over paddling even though it's legal in Georgia. As I said, it was not the parents who called the police and DFACS; our own administration called them.

Do the schools who have NOT banned paddling still paddle students? Obviously it should not be allowed--no question. Even knowing that it is legal, I would not dare attempt it. (That's how I got off track, so that's where I'll shut up this time!)

Parents receive a permission to paddle form with the start of the school year paperwork- they sign it if they want to allow school personnel to paddle their children. I have never heard of a child being paddled at Bay or SWHS since in the 2 years that we have been in those schools, and I hope I never hear after that fact that "So and so let their kid be paddled at school."

I know you weren't trying to derail- there are lots of directions this conversation can (and did) go. If anything comes of this conversation, I hope that it is local parents contacting the school board and letting them know that paddling in the educational setting is no longer something that should be part of a forward thinking and visionary school system policy.

This subject came up in 3 different conversations over the weekend. I talked to 3 different people who have recently moved here, and all 3 were flabbergasted that this policy is still in effect in a public school system in 2009. In fact, one person started snickering, and really thought I was trying to be funny, only to be horrified when they realized that I wasn't kidding.

 

[GoodWitch58]

I am pleased to see that the local newspaper editorially supports the No Paddle Rule adopted by Okaloosa Co. School District:

Okaloosa's paddling prohibition | county, beach, paddling - Opinion - Northwest Florida Daily News

 

[Susan Horn]

Seriously?

Only a small percentage of our students go into the military. We're college prep with a military structure. I wonder how many of them will get and keep a (civilian) job down the road if they learn as a child or young man to question/challenge/defy the instructions given to them. My bosses have never explained the minutia of their reasoning to me; they have expected me to follow instructions as given and figure out on my own that there is a good reason for them.

Recently one of my kids (a good one!) talked back to me in a moment of frustration. This is a smart kid who will not go into the military--he has a physical condition that will prohibit it--but who will likely go to a good college. I asked him how many times he thinks he will be able to talk to a boss the way he had just talked to me. He said that he couldn't talk to a boss like that. I explained that this was the reasoning behind our insistence that he address me respectfully at all times. He got that (and even apologized the next day!)

I think a lot of the kids who are smart, question authority and talk back are the ones who wind up being a boss instead of having a boss! They are without question a handful to raise and educate (I am mother to two and married to one; some might put me in that camp as well, LOL).

 

[GoodWitch58]

I agree, Susan. As a mom, a long time employer of many different people, and, now as a teacher, I can say that I value the students or employees who question. By far, it is that person who goes on to lead, create and inspire...and our world needs those just as much as it does the followers.

Like me, my son has always questioned and looked beyond what was right in front of him. A few times when he was a youngster, he almost got into trouble for politely questioning a teacher--each time, it turned out, he was right, and fortunately he had the kind of teachers who appreciated that he had the courage to speak up! And they were secure enough to admit that he knew more than they did about that particular issue.

As an adult he has been quite successful in many serious, often dangerous situations, because he "felt there was a better way to do things" In fact, as a member of the military he has received several commendations for "his courage and his creativity" when he thought of better, more efficient, ways of doing things; again, he was fortunate that he had commanding officers who were willing to trust his ideas. I am so proud of him for one of the things he designed that caused an entire tech manual for the military to be re-written--saved hours of time for the troops, and who knows...in the bigger picture may have even saved some lives. This would never have happened, if he not had the training and the encouragement to speak up when he thought something could be improved, regardless of what the "authority figure" said.


I do not want robots: I want thinking people; people who push the envelop and use more of their brain power, and do it with enthusiasm and joy. I have learned so much from my son and my grandchildren...often, their ideas about something are much better than my ideas. It is delightful.

What is teaching really except providing a forum for the intelligence and creativity to come forth...how does one get that without questioning? How does a teacher and ultimately the world, ever know what idea might be there, just beneath the surface, and, if it is not allowed to be expressed...

Certainly there needs to be discipline and order, but IMO not at the expense of questioning and exploring. I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive.

 

[NoHall]

At the risk of derailing again: I am NOT saying that students should be robots and should never question what is given to them. I'm talking about the students who are disruptive and defiant. They argue because they have been taught by their parents that they are the center of the universe and that all things should revolve around them. They question and interrupt because the instructions that were given to them are inconvenient. They are selfish to the extent that the other students in the class literally rise up in one voice and say, "Dude, just shut UP already!" and I end up kicking them out of class so that an administrator can deal with them and the others can go on with their CONSTRUCTIVE questioning and discussing.

 

[hnooe]

A POME BY ME:

I say more hugs,
Will bring happier mugs.
Instead of hitting,
what about talking and sitting?
Wayward children, the Universe will eventually self correct,
without a butt and a board to connect!
If violence and hitting children is all OK today,
then murder, rape, torture, and waterboarding, will just never go away..... : (

 

[Susan Horn]

Nohall, thanks for clarifying. I know exactly the sort of behavior you describe, and that does need a lid on it. What's sad is when the bright, curious, active learners get a teacher or teachers early-on who don't honor/allow questions and suppress the curiosity. Suppression either kills it, or causes it to fester and come out later, in a worse form than its original presentation -- likely a form that looks like the bratty, selfish types you describe. So these bright ones get the same treatment as the true brats. I have seen a LOT of that in area schools, and most often it is boys who follow that pattern (in my experience and observation, I am not saying that's how it is everywhere).

Goodwitch, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Balance is what is needed, and that is something that many people don't seem to understand or be able to cultivate. They get something that works in one situation and then try to apply that to everything, rather than tailoring the methods to the situation. It is sort of like good design (of a building, a chair, a colander, whatever)-- it takes more time and effort on the front end, but pays off huge in the long term through better performance, lower maintenance and operating costs, fewer repairs; the one-size-fits-all/cookie-cutter approach is easier up front but costs more to operate and maintain and doesn't function as well. I recognize the folly of comparing people to kitchen equipment and buildings, but it's the best I could come up with on a coffee break.

 

[GoodWitch58]

Nohall, thanks for clarifying. I know exactly the sort of behavior you describe, and that does need a lid on it. What's sad is when the bright, curious, active learners get a teacher or teachers early-on who don't honor/allow questions and suppress the curiosity. Suppression either kills it, or causes it to fester and come out later, in a worse form than its original presentation -- likely a form that looks like the bratty, selfish types you describe. So these bright ones get the same treatment as the true brats. I have seen a LOT of that in area schools, and most often it is boys who follow that pattern (in my experience and observation, I am not saying that's how it is everywhere).

Goodwitch, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Balance is what is needed, and that is something that many people don't seem to understand or be able to cultivate. They get something that works in one situation and then try to apply that to everything, rather than tailoring the methods to the situation. It is sort of like good design (of a building, a chair, a colander, whatever)-- it takes more time and effort on the front end, but pays off huge in the long term through better performance, lower maintenance and operating costs, fewer repairs; the one-size-fits-all/cookie-cutter approach is easier up front but costs more to operate and maintain and doesn't function as well. I recognize the folly of comparing people to kitchen equipment and buildings, but it's the best I could come up with on a coffee break.

I love it! Colanders!

And, it is one of the things that has always made me crazy about organizations--one size does not fit all. Ironically, it is often cheaper in the long run to look at things differently--unfortunately, it is difficult to convince many who are "in charge" that, that is the case.

When my son told me he was joining the military, I had only one request: that he join either the Air Force or the Coast Guard...because I was terrified that my outspoken, creative, artist child would be crushed by the military demand to "follow orders" no matter what. (I had worked for both the Air Force and the Navy, and had some interaction with the Marine Corps). I have been pleasantly surprised to see that the military--at least the Air Force-- has changed a lot since the 60s and 70s. His creativity and "look at it differently" has paid off big time! for him and he has been able to make quite a contribution, under some difficult circumstances. Now, he tells me he wants a job somewhere in Research and Development so that he can look at the way things are, and design a way to make them work better!

NoHall, I have not had to deal with the situations and the students you describe. I am sure that you handle them well and I do not mean to contradict what you say. Every case is different and obviously you are doing a good job.

That is not always the case though. I am doing a two week seminar with incoming college freshmen this week and next...starting tomorrow. One entire session is devoted to helping them feel comfortable asking questions of the instructor. So many do not understand something, yet they are afraid to question...and as a result, they end up completely lost.

Now, I have really veered off topic. Sorry. Maybe Kurt can move us to a new thread!