Should public schools paddle kids?

[LuciferSam]

No time is perfect - look in the dark corners of any society or time and you will find something distasteful. That doesn't mean something can't still be "great" - which IMO that generation certainly was!

I think the people were extraordinary for what they endured and the sacrifices they made, but I think in many ways our society as a whole was shockingly uncivilized. Paddling in school is one example. I've mentioned others. So changes came about to correct certain injustices. Naturally this causes dissension between people advocating change and those happy with the status quo. I think that's been the root of our problems as a nation all along. It's people unwilling to accept the fact that many of our traditionally accepted practices are sometimes wrong and even unconstitutional. But you know they say it's the way they were taught and the way their parents raised them and I say so effin' what? I think the baby doc is a convenient scapegoat.

 

[TooFarTampa]

What an enlightening thread. I think most of us will agree that you can't always use the same techniques on all children; we all have to work with what we're given and find the most effective ways to achieve the end result. Some are obviously more willful than others.

I will say that for the most part I am one of those in the "reason with your child crowd." I find, especially with my first child, that constantly explaining the reasons behind the rules has been extremely effective. Occasionally this turns lecture-y and naggy but at the same time, they have a much better sense of why our rules are what they are, and there is no question that they respect us. This is because usually our explanations are coupled with threats about what will happen if they don't comply, and follow-thru if they continue to act up. (The lectures don't work without threats.)

Our goal also is to raise empathetic children, ones who realize that they are not the only ones in the world and that what they do affects others around them. This is another reason behind the constant explanations. I want them to understand that when they are smudging up windows with their fingerprints at 6 p.m., some poor employee is going to be stuck cleaning them up at 11 p.m. It's a long process, as any parent knows, but I do see a lot of kids who have never been taught to consider others (some of them relatives of ours) and those seem to be the kids that are a lot harder to control.

 

[seagrovegirl]

I knew we had a lot in common! We both were licked by Askew and Hulon! Ha! I tell you what. I don't support corporal punishment in school because of the bruises that were left on my arse but you can sure bet we thought twice about repeating the same offense.

.......see there, you learned something while in Freeport HS, I, on the other hand, was a regular in the office. After my brothers, they kept an eye on me.

 

[sullygromo]

I'll tell you this...there are few people who are more pacifist than myself. There are two situations that would override that, however: someone coming into my house, and some teacher touching my children. I think either would turn me into Rambo in about 2 seconds.......

 

[GoodWitch58]

Here is an interesting look at corporal punishment in Florida schools from the Department of Education report:

http://www.fldoe.org/eias/eiaspubs/pdf/discipline.pdf

 

[NoHall]

What an enlightening thread. I think most of us will agree that you can't always use the same techniques on all children; we all have to work with what we're given and find the most effective ways to achieve the end result. Some are obviously more willful than others.

I will say that for the most part I am one of those in the "reason with your child crowd." I find, especially with my first child, that constantly explaining the reasons behind the rules has been extremely effective. Occasionally this turns lecture-y and naggy but at the same time, they have a much better sense of why our rules are what they are, and there is no question that they respect us. This is because usually our explanations are coupled with threats about what will happen if they don't comply, and follow-thru if they continue to act up. (The lectures don't work without threats.)

Our goal also is to raise empathetic children, ones who realize that they are not the only ones in the world and that what they do affects others around them. This is another reason behind the constant explanations. I want them to understand that when they are smudging up windows with their fingerprints at 6 p.m., some poor employee is going to be stuck cleaning them up at 11 p.m. It's a long process, as any parent knows, but I do see a lot of kids who have never been taught to consider others (some of them relatives of ours) and those seem to be the kids that are a lot harder to control.

I try to do this, too, but in a classroom it is almost impossible to explain the methods behind my madness to every student at every minute.

The first rule of our school reads: "The most basic rule of __________ is the willing response--prompt obedience--to the mature, reasonable, necessary and lawful orders of all faculty members and cadet leaders. All cadets are required to comply with the spirit of this rule. Lawful orders are defined as directions given that support ___________ policies, procedures, and regulations."

However, I've found that if I tell them up front that I expect them to do as I say without question because 1) we have things we have to do on a time frame, 2) I'm acting under orders myself, 3) I simply can't explain everything every time and 4) if they don't understand why I'm doing something I can explain it at a better time, they usually do pretty well. If they start to argue or balk, I can usually tell them that I need them to not question the instructions right then but to go on faith that I have a good reason.

I remember being a kid and thinking that the adults in charge were just shouting out orders because they didn't have anything better to do and didn't have the sense to think through it. If I let them know I've thought it through and I'm not flying by the seat of my pants they trust me. If I am flying by the seat of my pants, they know I'll tell them, I'll listen to them and I'll let them have some input in an orderly, respectful way. Works out great.

And if they smudge up my windows, drop stuff in the carpet, etc. I make sure that the entire class knows what goes into cleaning it up. At the end of the week they do 5 push ups for every scrap of trash on the floor. I've found that the cleaner I make them keep the place, the prouder they are of our music suite. Pretty amazing.

 

[LuciferSam]

I try to do this, too, but in a classroom it is almost impossible to explain the methods behind my madness to every student at every minute.

The first rule of our school reads: "The most basic rule of __________ is the willing response--prompt obedience--to the mature, reasonable, necessary and lawful orders of all faculty members and cadet leaders. All cadets are required to comply with the spirit of this rule. Lawful orders are defined as directions given that support ___________ policies, procedures, and regulations."

However, I've found that if I tell them up front that I expect them to do as I say without question because 1) we have things we have to do on a time frame, 2) I'm acting under orders myself, 3) I simply can't explain everything every time and 4) if they don't understand why I'm doing something I can explain it at a better time, they usually do pretty well. If they start to argue or balk, I can usually tell them that I need them to not question the instructions right then but to go on faith that I have a good reason.

I remember being a kid and thinking that the adults in charge were just shouting out orders because they didn't have anything better to do and didn't have the sense to think through it. If I let them know I've thought it through and I'm not flying by the seat of my pants they trust me. If I am flying by the seat of my pants, they know I'll tell them, I'll listen to them and I'll let them have some input in an orderly, respectful way. Works out great.

And if they smudge up my windows, drop stuff in the carpet, etc. I make sure that the entire class knows what goes into cleaning it up. At the end of the week they do 5 push ups for every scrap of trash on the floor. I've found that the cleaner I make them keep the place, the prouder they are of our music suite. Pretty amazing.

I think military discipline has to be different. Anytime you have a team of people executing a plan where there are no do-overs, people have to do what the leader tells them and sometimes there just isn't time to explain. The leader may be the only one who sees the big picture, and team members just have to fall into assigned rules for the success of everyone. In the military, survival would be one measure of success. I don't think this a good day-to-day regimen for parents to raise their kids. It should be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[NoHall]

I think military discipline has to be different. Anytime you have a team of people executing a plan where there are no do-overs, people have to do what the leader tells them and sometimes there just isn't time to explain. The leader may be the only one who sees the big picture, and team members just have to fall into assigned rules for the success of everyone. In the military, survival would be one measure of success. I don't think this a good day-to-day regimen for parents to raise their kids. It should be the exception rather than the rule.

Seriously?

Only a small percentage of our students go into the military. We're college prep with a military structure. I wonder how many of them will get and keep a (civilian) job down the road if they learn as a child or young man to question/challenge/defy the instructions given to them. My bosses have never explained the minutia of their reasoning to me; they have expected me to follow instructions as given and figure out on my own that there is a good reason for them.

Recently one of my kids (a good one!) talked back to me in a moment of frustration. This is a smart kid who will not go into the military--he has a physical condition that will prohibit it--but who will likely go to a good college. I asked him how many times he thinks he will be able to talk to a boss the way he had just talked to me. He said that he couldn't talk to a boss like that. I explained that this was the reasoning behind our insistence that he address me respectfully at all times. He got that (and even apologized the next day!)

 

[Jdarg]

me too, but I think that is probably not the case.

Today I intend to send this to the Walton County School Board with a request that they abolish the option of paddling children.



Plain Talk About Spanking

School Board:

Bill Laird, Chair: LairdBI@walton.k12.fl.us
Sharron Roberts, VChair: RobertsS@walton.k12.fl.us
DavisMAR@walton.k12.fl.us
BarnhillDA@walton.k12.fl.us
WilkersM@walton.k12.fl.us
Ben Holley, Esq.
Attorney for the Board
P. O. Box 1238
Crestview, Florida 32536
(anyone know why the Walton Co. School Board has an Okaloosa County attorney?)

To get back on track ( the thread is about paddling at public school), let's get this nastiness out of our school system and move forward into the modern times. ;-) Please write your school board members and tell them you do not support the school position of allowing paddling with parental consent. It is a bad practice that needs to be eliminated from our school system.

For all I know, they may already be considering removing the paddling option like Okaloosa- let's hope so.

 

[LuciferSam]

Seriously?

Only a small percentage of our students go into the military. We're college prep with a military structure. I wonder how many of them will get and keep a (civilian) job down the road if they learn as a child or young man to question/challenge/defy the instructions given to them. My bosses have never explained the minutia of their reasoning to me; they have expected me to follow instructions as given and figure out on my own that there is a good reason for them.

Recently one of my kids (a good one!) talked back to me in a moment of frustration. This is a smart kid who will not go into the military--he has a physical condition that will prohibit it--but who will likely go to a good college. I asked him how many times he thinks he will be able to talk to a boss the way he had just talked to me. He said that he couldn't talk to a boss like that. I explained that this was the reasoning behind our insistence that he address me respectfully at all times. He got that (and even apologized the next day!)

Dead seriously that you should take the time to help the kids understand your objectives when possible unless you think a society of zombie bots is a good thing. I never said you should tolerate disrespect. It looks to me like you're going off on a tangent. I'm not sure whose post you're reading. It sure as hell ain't mine.