Should public schools paddle kids?

[bluemtnrunner]

Jake and Elwood were never helped by corporal punishment

Jake: [to Sister Mary Stigmata] Five grand? No problem, we'll have it for you in the morning. Let's go, Elwood.
Sister Mary Stigmata: No, no! I will not take your filthy stolen money!
Jake: Well then... I guess you're really up Sh## Creek.
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Jake Blues with a ruler for using that kind of language]
Sister Mary Stigmata: I beg your pardon, what did you say?
Jake: I offered to help you... You refused to take our money. Then I said: I guess you're really up Sh## Creek.
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Jake Blues with the ruler again]
Elwood: Chrisp, Jake. Take it easy man.
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Elwood Blues]
Jake: Oh sh##!
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Jake Blues]
Elwood: Jesu Chrisp!
[Sister Mary Stigmata hits Elwood Blues]
Jake: Sh##!


Some kids...they just never learn.

 

[Lynnie]

Ran into school librarian neighbor and asked her about this. Not sure if it's statewide or by county, but Cobb and Fulton have "Do not Touch" policies. She said she isn't even supposed to hug her students, but that she does hug them when she senses one needs a hug. She is in a suburban (poorer area). When she first came to GA from NY in the 70's, all teachers had their own paddles and used them when needed. She never knew of any abuse (believe me, it would have been made public).

I think times have changed as a lot of us who grew up in the 70's and 80's remember being paddled. I'm sure those who grew up in the 50's and 60's were paddled as well. However, I can't ever recall someone in my school or hometown who was abused (like what DD described or anything even remotely like that).

Librarian went on to explain that they have 'panic' buttons.
A child gets unruly and won't listen, ignores discipline, she pushes her button. Guess who shows up? Not one, but two officers. "Police Officers?" I asked her. "Fully uniformed?" Yes, and with their weapons.

My, how times have changed! I remember a case in FL in the 80's about a 14 or 15 year old wanting to 'divorce' his/her parents. Anyone remember that? Parents (some) lost control? Some children/teenagers know how far they can go these days. It truly is sad.

Then, we have the situation of children bringing guns to school??? When did things change? Again, I am not a proponent of striking a child, but it is baffling.

 

[NoHall]

Even if a school doesn't have a "do not touch" policy, it's usually understood. Whether you're spanking or hugging, it's just too dangerous.

I just had a disciplinary moment with my 5-year-old nephew. He's extremely spoiled, and it drives me and my father nuts. He was driving my poor parents to fight (they never fight!) so I dragged him off to the bedroom myself. I put him on the bed, rolled him on his side and told him I would paint his back porch red if he didn't quit his screaming.

Then I took SJ's advice and spoke to him with love and understanding. It's frustrating to know that he will only stop his tantrums long enough to respond to love and understanding when he's threatened with spanking--my mother tries the love and understanding while he's having a whining fit, and it falls on deaf, spoiled ears...

(Ironically, I'm watching "Dead Poet's Society," and it's at the part where Charlie is getting a paddling from the headmaster. It clearly didn't work with him, either.)

 

[Susan Horn]

I'm not sure I can agree that do not touch policies are a good idea. I remember being told not to touch students when I was a Chapter One Aide at Bay Elementary, and it simply could not be done. I was pregnant, and especially the littlest ones would always come up to me and hug me, pat my belly, talk to the baby, etc. They wanted to sit in my lap. They can sense where love and goodness and vitality are, and they want to get right up next to it.

How do you not at least pat a child on the head for such sweetness? How do you not take a hurt or crying child into your lap, if that warmth is welcomed? Appropriate touch cannot be legislated -- I think there is a deeper problem (or many problems) under all this, though at the moment I can't begin to spell it out.

I am a rather well healed survivor of, shall we say, inappropriate touch in early childhood. The road to recovery was long and painful but ultimately positive (I am one of the lucky success stories). What I taught my children, to empower them to feel confident and safe and protect themselves from any unwanted touch, was this: that any time anyone of any age in any setting touched or tried to touch (or even talk to) them in any way (violent or otherwise) that they didn't feel right about, they should say no, kick, scream, hit, fight back, run, go to the principal or other trusted adult, whatever. And that no matter what kind of trouble they might get in for refusing unwanted touch, I would back them up, stand up for them. I also shared with them the identities of people they might come into contact with who gave me the creepy feeling, and warned them specifically not to ever get into a situation of being alone with those individuals, no matter what (again, I would back them up). I taught them to trust their gut and honor that creepy feeling even if it didn't make sense. As far as I know, this has worked well for them.

I was never told that as a child. To the contrary, what I learned (from spoken and unspoken rules) was that I existed to please others -- especially adults and others in positions of authority -- and to do what others wanted me to do, to such an extent that it took lots of therapy and years into adulthood before I could actually even determine for myself what I wanted. Then more therapy for the courage and skills to do what it took to get what I wanted for me, regardless of whether this pleased others or not.

There is a fine line between empowering our children to feel safe and confident around boundaries and getting their own needs met, while also teaching them respect for others and others' boundaries. I don't know where the line is -- I think it moves constantly based on the individuals in question and the context.

I have no idea how to fix this problem in our schools or in our culture at large, but to try and teach preschool and grammar school without touching kids is plain crazy and impossible. I can't speak to middle and high school, as I've never taught in those grades (I do better with the younger ones), but I can tell you that the kids can spot a meanie or a pervert (for lack of a better term) long before the person gets officially caught, arrested, banned from teaching, whatever. Mine could, anyway -- and they steered clear of those types.

As far as love and understanding--yes, it is necessary. But when a 5-yr-old has just whacked his best friend across the nose with a piece of rebar, for the mom to whisk the hitter away, hugging and kissing him, and taking him for an ice cream cone (I have witnessed this) is taking it a little too far. Love and understanding, in my view, must be tempered with firmness and appropriate consequences to be effective.

Wow, I think this thread touched a couple of nerves that are still a little sensitive! Hope there's something of value for someone in this ramble.

 

[Lynnie]

Susan, you are amazing!

 

[steyou]

I can think of plenty of ways to show disappointment with a baby than to spank them. However, maybe disappointment isn't what needs to be shown in order to correct the behavior. Maybe love and understanding is the answer.

Again we believe spare the rod spoil the child. I find it quite offensive that anyone can think that if a parent spanks a young child that they do not love and understand their children. That is an utterly unloving statement. I do not have to defend myself here but I will say that we never spanked in public, never on a bare bottom, never spinned the child in circles, never bruised, always on a clothed bottom, never with my hand (we used a paddle ball paddle and that was the only thing), never spanked out of anger, do I need to go on????????? And.........once the spanking ordeal was over we loved each other and we understood each other. I even think that our Biblical way is way superior to Dr. Spock and the reason with a child crowd. Also, my wife has a similar experience as Susan Horn and she has always vowed to break the familial cycle. With prayer that has been done. She is a tremendous blessing to others who have heard her story. Her experience has gave us a list of not to do's with children. I am so thankful for this. So Smiling Joe, I am sure you know of plenty of ways to raise children and go through the discipline process but chill out on the personal attacks until you know the folks. That's all.

 

[Andy A]

I have followed this thread with extreme interest and noted the different points of view presented. As many are aware, I am not great on what is posted on the internet, in articles or books as "pure fact" instead relying on my own experiences, results and learnings to form my very firm opinions and actions, whether they appear to others to be right or wrong. The only thing I can say for sure is that they will not be intentionally criminal.

My butt has long ceased hurting from the paddlings and spankings administered to me by my wise, but uneducated father. The lessons I learned as to why I was receiving such corporal punishment, however, remain with me to this day.
We had corporal punishment in our schools clear through high school. It was not administered by a teacher but by the principal and the parents were notified. The last thing I wanted was to be punished at school because I knew the results I would receive at home would be twice as bad.
It is my definite opinion that the Dr. Spock era was the beginning of many of the problems we have today. There was plenty of love in my family but there was also a strong sense of disipline, and yes, it included paddling. That went for most of my childhood friends as well.
I don't pretend to have the answers to our problems today. What I do know is that I was raised in a different time and with a different attitude of parenting than I see in today's society. I only know it, for the most part, worked for most of us. My life has been one where I do not have to depend on others for my existence, fairly fruitful and overall enjoyable. My children, who also were spanked when as parents we thought it was justified, are also successful and happy adults who have produced disiplined, reasonable and happy grandchildren.
To sum up. I see nothing wrong with corporal punishment but I realize I was raised in a different time and era. One, by the way, that was the greatest our nation has ever known.

 

[LuciferSam]

Again we believe spare the rod spoil the child. I find it quite offensive that anyone can think that if a parent spanks a young child that they do not love and understand their children. That is an utterly unloving statement. I do not have to defend myself here but I will say that we never spanked in public, never on a bare bottom, never spinned the child in circles, never bruised, always on a clothed bottom, never with my hand (we used a paddle ball paddle and that was the only thing), never spanked out of anger, do I need to go on????????? And.........once the spanking ordeal was over we loved each other and we understood each other. I even think that our Biblical way is way superior to Dr. Spock and the reason with a child crowd. Also, my wife has a similar experience as Susan Horn and she has always vowed to break the familial cycle. With prayer that has been done. She is a tremendous blessing to others who have heard her story. Her experience has gave us a list of not to do's with children. I am so thankful for this. So Smiling Joe, I am sure you know of plenty of ways to raise children and go through the discipline process but chill out on the personal attacks until you know the folks. That's all.

Just so you know, Spock didn't come out against spanking until 1988. I was spanked ocassionally. Honestly I think it just made me more willful, which isn't such a bad thing.

 

[scooterbug44]

I was spanked many a time and 1) never doubted that my parents loved me 2) always earned/deserved it. We could be real little sheets sometimes and a spanking was deserved and just one of the many ways we could be punished. Losing TV or video games, cleaning up the dog poo in the yard, various other manual labor, losing allowance, and missing out of funn stuff were other disciplinary actions.

Time-outs or understanding talks about what we had done wrong had no effect on us whatsoever and just elicited eye rolls. Basically we had no respect for adults who didn't have the cojones to discipline us or their own kids - we saw it as weakness.

At age 7, I got in trouble for smacking another kid - I knew his mother wouldn't do a damn thing to punish him, so I did. Last I heard she had made his liquor store robbery go away by paying off the store owner and was convinced that his academic failings in college were due to a "learning disability" - strange since he was so "gifted" until she needed another excuse for him. :roll:

I have no tolerance for child abusers, but a swat on the behind from a parent's hand to correct behavior is not child abuse, it's discipline. If you don't agree w/ spanking and have a well behaved child/children, I respect your decision, but IMO many brats would benefit from it.

 

[LuciferSam]

I have followed this thread with extreme interest and noted the different points of view presented. As many are aware, I am not great on what is posted on the internet, in articles or books as "pure fact" instead relying on my own experiences, results and learnings to form my very firm opinions and actions, whether they appear to others to be right or wrong. The only thing I can say for sure is that they will not be intentionally criminal.

My butt has long ceased hurting from the paddlings and spankings administered to me by my wise, but uneducated father. The lessons I learned as to why I was receiving such corporal punishment, however, remain with me to this day.
We had corporal punishment in our schools clear through high school. It was not administered by a teacher but by the principal and the parents were notified. The last thing I wanted was to be punished at school because I knew the results I would receive at home would be twice as bad.
It is my definite opinion that the Dr. Spock era was the beginning of many of the problems we have today. There was plenty of love in my family but there was also a strong sense of disipline, and yes, it included paddling. That went for most of my childhood friends as well.
I don't pretend to have the answers to our problems today. What I do know is that I was raised in a different time and with a different attitude of parenting than I see in today's society. I only know it, for the most part, worked for most of us. My life has been one where I do not have to depend on others for my existence, fairly fruitful and overall enjoyable. My children, who also were spanked when as parents we thought it was justified, are also successful and happy adults who have produced disiplined, reasonable and happy grandchildren.
To sum up. I see nothing wrong with corporal punishment but I realize I was raised in a different time and era. One, by the way, that was the greatest our nation has ever known.

At the risk of going off topic, something needs to be said about about the greatest era. A large portion of the population, mainly women and minorities, were denied civil rights, and did so in silence. I guess as long as they kept their mouths shut, things might have seemed really great for the rest of us, but try putting yourself in their shoes. How great would things be then? So maybe things were great, but they certainly weren't right. Oh! and I shudder when I think about the treatment of the mentally ill. Lobotomies, Thorazine, electroshock therapy all in inhumane primitive stages. I think "greatest error" might be more fitting for those times. Let's not ever go back to them.