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tofu

Beach Lover
Dec 2, 2007
134
43
Jim Johnston sounds like a very qualified fellow!

Seriously, I think aluminum foil hats are in order for those who think that anyone who is a global warming skeptic has been programmed by a petroleum company. That is intellectually dishonest.
I don't remember saying that. Did I? Maybe you can show me.

In fact, if I remember correctly, you were the one who said we should always be on the lookout for corporate connections to either of the camps on this issue.

Nor do I think it is fair to label those who believe humans are turning up the thermostat as UN kooks who want to tax us to death.
Obviously not.

All I want is: An honest analysis and debate regarding the topic by people who actually know what they are talking about, and this excludes almost all politicians, diplomats, actors and talk radio hosts. Following the debate, I would like to see a true consensus as to what is going on with the climate as well as a truly honest projection of what we can or cannot realistically do to make changes.

Is that too much to ask?
The information is out there. Look up the skeptics' arguments, then look up the climatologists' arguments, which (IMO) disprove all the major objections. Sites like RealClimate are good, if a bit advanced and technical.

Personally speaking, I used to be on the fence about this issue. I did some research on the internet, and read debate threads like this one, and made my mind that MMGW is real. I can only hope that those who can make a difference will realize the same thing before it's too late.
 

30A Skunkape

Skunky
Jan 18, 2006
10,314
2,349
55
Backatown Seagrove
I don't remember saying that. Did I? Maybe you can show me.

In fact, if I remember correctly, you were the one who said we should always be on the lookout for corporate connections to either of the camps on this issue.


Obviously not.


The information is out there. Look up the skeptics' arguments, then look up the climatologists' arguments, which (IMO) disprove all the major objections. Sites like RealClimate are good, if a bit advanced and technical.

Personally speaking, I used to be on the fence about this issue. I did some research on the internet, and read debate threads like this one, and made my mind that MMGW is real. I can only hope that those who can make a difference will realize the same thing before it's too late.

Learn to speak the tongues that the Chinese and Indian governments conduct business in and you can make a difference!
 

Bobskunk

Beach Lover
Jan 14, 2008
177
113
From National Geographic

"The melting of an enormous Antarctic ice sheet 14,000 years ago triggered climatic changes in Europe and North America that ultimately led to the end of the last ice age, according to a new study. "

That, and the fact that 14,000 years ago, people drove gas guzzling snowmobiles with little thought of how that might melt glaciers. If Obama had been around then, I could be ice fishing in SoWal today.
 

fisher

Beach Fanatic
Sep 19, 2005
822
76
Question - could someone please give me an example of when we have drastically changed the environment and pollution level of an area and it had a POSITIVE outcome for the humans and animals in that area. (Please note, someone making a bunch of money does not qualify as a positive outcome).

Not drastically changing your environment or polluting it seems like good ol' common sense to me - regardless of your views on science or religion.

Before answering your question, let me say that I am all for conservation, recycling, and generally being good stewards of the planet we live on. I also think the man made global warming theories are a bunch of bologna based on political rather than true scientific views.

That said --

Please compare the standard of living, length of life span and general health of the populations in the most natural areas of the third world to the most polluted, changed environments in advanced, developed nations. What you will obviously see is that all the pollution and environmental changes (that come from generating electricity, mass production of crops, producing cars, clothes, drugs, phones, and all the other necessities and niceties of modern living) in fact do improve the situation of humans.

For example, compare the people in a native tribe in the pristine, unchanged and unpolluted forests of Brazil, Papua New Guinea, Interior Africa, etc to say, the citizens of New York, Tokyo, London, Hong Kong, etc, etc. You will clearly find that the price of progress (pollution, environmental change, etc) has benefited mankind tremendously.

If you want to go back to living off the land in the jungle, on the plains, in the valleys without running water, electricity, cars, planes, grocery stores, department stores, hospitals, drugs, schools, plastics, fertilizers, etc, etc, go for it. But, I guarantee you will come running back to polluted civilization very, very quickly.


So, the answer to your question is--look around you. Of course, we are better off in our polluted world than the natives living the natural way in unpolluted areas of the world.

Can you please tell us how we would have gotten out of the stone age WITHOUT polluting the earth and making drastic changes to the environment around us.
 
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Susan Horn

Beach Fanatic
I haven't heard much about this, any references?



Agree with you there. In one respect, keeping a vibrant farming industry going is a national security issue so we don't want to see farming getting exported, but I think the vast majority of this today is simply about buying votes.

You can rent a movie called King Corn from Netflix that entertainingly spells out a whole lot about our industrial ag and industrial food system that is out of whack. Look into the slow food/local food movement and you will encounter a host of resources about the byzantine complexity and wrongheadedness of our Farm Bill. I'm on a number of e-lists that send me alerts whenever something especially insane is happening around food/ag. It's easy to get informed with just a little effort.
 

Will B

Moderator
Jan 5, 2006
4,563
1,317
Atlanta, GA
Disagreement in the Obama camp...

Obama appointed EPA Administrator, Lisa Jackson, said, "I believe the central parts of the [EPA] chart are that U.S. action alone will not impact world CO2 levels." She stated that US cap-and-trade schemes would have zero effect on global emissions levels.

Well, golly gee! When Obama's Energy Secretary saw the charts and info, he simply stated that he disagrees, and that was that.

It gives me such a warm fuzzy that such meaningful discussion and debate is taking place over the largest tax increase that could ever hit the US. I'm all for protecting the Earth, but come on...
 

Susan Horn

Beach Fanatic
You can rent a movie called King Corn from Netflix that entertainingly spells out a whole lot about our industrial ag and industrial food system that is out of whack. Look into the slow food/local food movement and you will encounter a host of resources about the byzantine complexity and wrongheadedness of our Farm Bill. I'm on a number of e-lists that send me alerts whenever something especially insane is happening around food/ag. It's easy to get informed with just a little effort.

Another movie that I really want to see about food and agriculture is Food, Inc.


Official Food, Inc. Movie Site - Hungry For Change?

Shockingly, it is now showing in theaters all over USA but none withing 150 miles of Seagrove. Opening next weekend in Tallahassee, so maybe I can convince Hub to pop over there for dinner & a movie! That, or waitill it comes on Netflix.

Sure wish some enterprising person would open a small movie house in South Walton and show all these cool films that never make to the monster-plexes around here. I'd love to be able to see them when they're new instead of having to wait! Mt. Film is fantastic but only 2 nights a year...
 

Susan Horn

Beach Fanatic
some books I'd like to read about this topic

Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All-American Meal

by Eric Schlosser

Are we what we eat? To a degree both engrossing and alarming, the story of fast food is the story of postwar America. Though created by a handful of mavericks, the fast food industry has triggered the homogenization of our society. Fast food has hastened the malling of our landscape, widened the chasm between rich and poor, fueled an epidemic of obesity, and propelled the juggernaut of American cultural imperialism abroad. That's a lengthy list of charges, but Eric Schlosser makes them stick with an artful mix of first-rate reportage, wry wit, and careful reasoning.
Schlosser's myth-shattering survey stretches from the California subdivisions where the business was born to the industrial corridor along the New Jersey Turnpike where many of fast food's flavors are concocted. He hangs out with the teenagers who make the restaurants run and communes with those unlucky enough to hold America's most dangerous job?meatpacker. He travels to Las Vegas for a giddily surreal franchisers' convention where Mikhail Gorbachev delivers the keynote address. He even ventures to England and Germany to clock the rate at which those countries are becoming fast food nations.
Along the way, Schlosser unearths a trove of fascinating, unsettling truths?from the unholy alliance between fast food and Hollywood to the seismic changes the industry has wrought in food production, popular culture, and even real estate. He also uncovers the fast food chains' efforts to reel in the youngest, most susceptible consumers even while they hone their institutionalized exploitation of teenagers and minorities. Schlosser then turns a critical eye toward the hot topic of globalization?a phenomenon launched by fast food. Fast Food Nation is a groundbreaking work of investigation and cultural history that may change the way America thinks about the way it eats.


Everything I Want To Do Is Illegal: War Stories From the Local Food Front

by Joel Salatin

Drawing upon 40 years experience as an ecological farmer and marketer, Joel Salatin explains with humor and passion why Americans do not have the freedom to choose the food they purchase and eat. From child labor regulations to food inspection, bureaucrats provide themselves sole discretion over what food is available in the local marketplace. Their system favors industrial, global corporate food systems and discourages community-based food commerce, resulting in homogenized selection, mediocre quality, and exposure to non-organic farming practices. Salatin's expert insight explains why local food is expensive and difficult to find and will illuminate for the reader a deeper understanding of the industrial food complex.

Food Politics: How the Food Industry Influences Nutrition and Health

by Marion Nestle

Editor of the 1988 Surgeon General's Report on Nutrition and Health, Nestle is uniquely qualified to lead us through the maze of food industry interests and influences. She vividly illustrates food politics in action: watered-down government dietary advice, schools pushing soft drinks, diet supplements promoted as if they were First Amendment rights. When it comes to the mass production and consumption of food, strategic decisions are driven by economics?not science, not common sense, and certainly not health.
No wonder most of us are thoroughly confused about what to eat to stay healthy. An accessible and balanced account, Food Politics will forever change the way we respond to food industry marketing practices. By explaining how much the food industry influences government nutrition policies and how cleverly it links its interests to those of nutrition experts, this path breaking book helps us understand more clearly than ever.

Stuffed and Starved: The Hidden Battle for the World Food System

by Raj Patel

Half the world is malnourished, the other half obese?both symptoms of the corporate food monopoly. To show how a few powerful distributors control the health of the entire world, Raj Patel conducts a global investigation, traveling from the "green deserts" of Brazil and protester-packed streets of South Korea to bankrupt Ugandan coffee farms and barren fields of India. What he uncovers is shocking?the real reasons for famine in Asia and Africa, an epidemic of farmer suicides, and the false choices and conveniences in supermarkets. Yet he also finds hope?in international resistance movements working to create a more democratic, sustainable, and joyful food system.
From seed to store to plate, Stuffed and Starved explains the steps to regain control of the global food economy, stop the exploitation of farmers and consumers, and rebalance global sustenance.
Harvest For Hope: A Guide to Mindful Eating

by Jane Goodall

World-renowned scientist and conservationist Jane Goodall earned her fame by studying chimpanzee feeding habits. But in Harvest for Hope, she scrutinizes human eating behaviors, and the colossal food industries that force-feed some cultures' self-destructive habits for mass consumption. It's an unsustainable lifestyle that Goodall argues must change immediately, beginning?not ironically?at a grassroots level.
 

scooterbug44

SoWal Expert
May 8, 2007
16,706
3,339
Sowal
Before answering your question, let me say that I am all for conservation, recycling, and generally being good stewards of the planet we live on. I also think the man made global warming theories are a bunch of bologna based on political rather than true scientific views.

That said --

Please compare the standard of living, length of life span and general health of the populations in the most natural areas of the third world to the most polluted, changed environments in advanced, developed nations. What you will obviously see is that all the pollution and environmental changes (that come from generating electricity, mass production of crops, producing cars, clothes, drugs, phones, and all the other necessities and niceties of modern living) in fact do improve the situation of humans.

For example, compare the people in a native tribe in the pristine, unchanged and unpolluted forests of Brazil, Papua New Guinea, Interior Africa, etc to say, the citizens of New York, Tokyo, London, Hong Kong, etc, etc. You will clearly find that the price of progress (pollution, environmental change, etc) has benefited mankind tremendously.

If you want to go back to living off the land in the jungle, on the plains, in the valleys without running water, electricity, cars, planes, grocery stores, department stores, hospitals, drugs, schools, plastics, fertilizers, etc, etc, go for it. But, I guarantee you will come running back to polluted civilization very, very quickly.


So, the answer to your question is--look around you. Of course, we are better off in our polluted world than the natives living the natural way in unpolluted areas of the world.

Can you please tell us how we would have gotten out of the stone age WITHOUT polluting the earth and making drastic changes to the environment around us.

When did I advocate going back to the Stone Age? :dunno:

All I am saying is that I have yet to see a situation where destroying our immediate environment and adding lots of toxins has not had a negative effect, so it seems reasonable to limit the extent to which we do so whenever we can.

Big difference between unnecessary excess/willful destruction and moderation/good stewardship to keep from destroying our planet.
 

Susan Horn

Beach Fanatic
When did I advocate going back to the Stone Age? :dunno:

All I am saying is that I have yet to see a situation where destroying our immediate environment and adding lots of toxins has not had a negative effect, so it seems reasonable to limit the extent to which we do so whenever we can.

Big difference between unnecessary excess/willful destruction and moderation/good stewardship to keep from destroying our planet.

A great book that shows how totally possible it is to live abundantly with modern comforts and conveniences without poisoning ourselves or our planet:

Cradle 2 Cradle: Remaking the Way We Make Things
by William McDonough and Michael Braungarten
 
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