Suppressed Climate Change Report

[fisher]

When did I advocate going back to the Stone Age?

All I am saying is that I have yet to see a situation where destroying our immediate environment and adding lots of toxins has not had a negative effect, so it seems reasonable to limit the extent to which we do so whenever we can.

Big difference between unnecessary excess/willful destruction and moderation/good stewardship to keep from destroying our planet.

Not sure I follow you on this one. Give some example of what you are saying becasue your original question was as follows-- "The question was drastic environmental change plus pollution and a positive outcome". I am not saying that we can never change anything, just asking for an actual POSITIVE example of man-made changes that caused pollution and had a long-term positive outcome because I couldn't think of one offhand.

Okay--here is one example--the automobile/truck/truck/boat/aircraft engine. The exhaust from these engines creates emissions that the global warming crowd says will eventually lead to the melting of all the ice caps in the world. Yet, without these engines, we would still be living in the 19th century. A positive outcome from polluting, man made products.

Here is another--oil/coal/nuclear power plants. These contribute all kinds of pollution to our world. Yet, without these we wouldn't be powering air conditioners, computers, refridgerators, tv's, electric vehicles, etc, etc. Again, a positive outcome from polluting, man made products.

Either we go back to the stone age or you realize that most of the stuff you enjoy day in and day out will likely create some kind of negative impact on our environment but the POSITIVE OUTCOME outweighs the negative impact on our environment.

 

[Andy A]

I am certainly glad I do not have to deal with the planet saving issues some of you are so concerned about. Fisher makes some great points and having seen this planet for so many years time and time again from above, I certainly agree with him. It is my firm conviction we can be "stewards of the land" and still enjoy our lifestyle as it is today.
I wish I could get excited about eating properly but, alas, I can't. I have lived too long abusing my body to correct that fallacy now but, boy, has it sure been fun! For all those who want to save the earth and eat healthy, be my guest.
My wife, on the other hand, says she has done everything right regarding nuitrition, lifestyle and the environment, being a Master Gardener, and now she finds herself with kidney cancer at an age 17 years younger than mine. Says she feels cheated. I understand.
My final comment. Live life as you see it and to its fullest, as long as your actions do not impact on others. Enjoy all close to you and your friends, aquaintances and even strangers and while cognizant of all that goes on around you, don't sweat the small stuff. Or even, at times, the large stuff. Life is too short and goes by too quickly to worry about things over which you have little or no control.

 

[Douglas the Intrepid]

My final comment. Live life as you see it and to its fullest, as long as your actions do not impact on others. Enjoy all close to you and your friends, aquaintances and even strangers and while cognizant of all that goes on around you, don't sweat the small stuff. Or even, at times, the large stuff. Life is too short and goes by too quickly to worry about things over which you have little or no control.

Thank you Andy, that is wonderful advice. Its easy to 'think' too much sometimes and overlook the things in life that really matter....

 

[Susan Horn]

My final comment. Live life as you see it and to its fullest, as long as your actions do not impact on others. .

Every choice we make, from what kind of car to drive (or not), to what we eat, wear, live in, and how we earn our daily bread -- every single thing has an impact on the lives of others, whether we believe it or not. Everything is interconnected and mutually interdependent.

It is possible to live life to the fullest, abundantly, joyfully, while also making changes and choices that do not harm others or the planet, and in some ways, may make it better or restore damage.

Some of the smartest people alive today, all over the planet, are designing ways to do that. Some of them get together each year in Monterey, CA, to share their ideas and build support networks, and the organization that brings them together graciously posts videos of their fantastic presentations on the internet so we can watch them at no charge.

www.ted.com

 

[Andy A]

SH, I afraid I don't agree with your premise at all. We all live our lives independently and very little we do in them actually impacts others unless we seek to make it so. Yours is a wonderfully idealistic view of the world but I don't believe it is practical or possible in today's world. It may be I've seen too much in my lifetime and, therefore, am jaded. So be it. I am for pursuing a better more environmentally sensetiive universe as long as it does not adversely impact me and mine. If that sound selfish, so be it. I, and many others, have our own opinions of what life is all about and we are entitled not only to them but to pursue options that bring them about. I wish you luck in bringing about all the changes you seek for our planet. I happen to believe that man is too infintesiman and the universe to diverse for us to make much of a difference but it is a worthy goal for those attempting to reach it. If you don't mind, except for picking up after myself and mine, exerting as much care with which I am comfortable environmetally and driving a smaller car, I'll spend my time trying to change those things we have the immediate ability and means to change like building the best possible community in which to live. While this is far from the all encompassing change many seek...as the saying goes, "any journey starts with small steps".

 

[Susan Horn]

SH, I afraid I don't agree with your premise at all. We all live our lives independently and very little we do in them actually impacts others unless we seek to make it so. Yours is a wonderfully idealistic view of the world but I don't believe it is practical or possible in today's world. It may be I've seen too much in my lifetime and, therefore, am jaded. So be it. I am for pursuing a better more environmentally sensetiive universe as long as it does not adversely impact me and mine. If that sound selfish, so be it. I, and many others, have our own opinions of what life is all about and we are entitled not only to them but to pursue options that bring them about. I wish you luck in bringing about all the changes you seek for our planet. I happen to believe that man is too infintesiman and the universe to diverse for us to make much of a difference but it is a worthy goal for those attempting to reach it. If you don't mind, except for picking up after myself and mine, exerting as much care with which I am comfortable environmetally and driving a smaller car, I'll spend my time trying to change those things we have the immediate ability and means to change like building the best possible community in which to live. While this is far from the all encompassing change many seek...as the saying goes, "any journey starts with small steps".

AA, much thanks for taking the time to explain your position. Clearly, we have different world views. On my saddest days, the days when I am most tempted to check myself permanently into the rest home, I fall into the same kind of existential cynicism you express, so I believe I might understand a little of how you might feel (though I do not presume to know your heart and mnid, just looking for commonalities wherever they may be). As to our divergent worldviews -- I thank a group of wildeyed idealists, dreamers and revolutionaries for making it possible for us to express and debate these views freely in a public setting of our choosing.

One question -- and please forgive me if I should have picked up on this from other posts, but I am still somewhat new to Sowal and don't know everyone's back story yet-- do you have children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews? (i.e., younger generation of kinfolks).

I do truly appreciate your willingness to take the time and effort to explain your position.

 

[Andy A]

AA, much thanks for taking the time to explain your position. Clearly, we have different world views. On my saddest days, the days when I am most tempted to check myself permanently into the rest home, I fall into the same kind of existential cynicism you express, so I believe I might understand a little of how you might feel (though I do not presume to know your heart and mnid, just looking for commonalities wherever they may be). As to our divergent worldviews -- I thank a group of wildeyed idealists, dreamers and revolutionaries for making it possible for us to express and debate these views freely in a public setting of our choosing.

One question -- and please forgive me if I should have picked up on this from other posts, but I am still somewhat new to Sowal and don't know everyone's back story yet-- do you have children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews? (i.e., younger generation of kinfolks).

I do truly appreciate your willingness to take the time and effort to explain your position.

In answer to your question, SH, I have all of the above in spades. I do not worry about the earth deserting them unless there is an occurrence of catastrophic proportions, and should that occur it will not be because of any man made occurrence outside of a nuclear war, IMO.
Contrary to your evaluation of being any kind of a cynic, I am pragmatic and feel there is a total lack of common sense displayed by many in regard to our climatology.
My knowledge and opinions come from years of being a weatherman and observing the earth while spending l6 years flying over it and living on it. I decry much of what I consider "nonsense" being foisted upon the public by many who have neither observed personally nor been party to, many of the theories they put forth. It is possible you are correct and I am wrong but I don't think so and until someone shows me a lot more proof than has been presented to this point, I will continue to believe as I do.
You are entitled to follow the group of wildeyed idealists, dreamers and revolutionaries and I, and my family, which is quite expansive, will continue to follow and support those who foster a more pragmatic approach to our environmental issues.

 

[Miss Kitty]

Great debate!

I have not done any extensive reading on climate change, but have learned alot from y'all on sowal. I am of the mind that even if one doesn't buy the cry of the "global warners", we should all make as many common sense changes as possible, such as...recycling* and finding ways to curb excessive use of water, gas, electricity. Simple things that make a huge impact!

*...sorry, John R...I still drink my bottled water. But, I buy the huge containers and refill through out the day and I recycle.

 

[Susan Horn]

You are entitled to follow the group of wildeyed idealists, dreamers and revolutionaries and I, and my family, which is quite expansive, will continue to follow and support those who foster a more pragmatic approach to our environmental issues.

So are you saying you don't approve of/agree with what the framers of our Constitution and founders of our nation managed to accomplish, from which it seems you and yours benefit in every moment of every day?

 

[Andy A]

So are you saying you don't approve of/agree with what the framers of our Constitution and founders of our nation managed to accomplish, from which it seems you and yours benefit in every moment of every day?

All at once, the thread turns. I don't know what you are talking about here. Let me put it as succinctly as I know how. I believe in climate change. I believe, from my education and experience, it is cyclic in its being. I believe that the population of one country, or possibly even the world, can do little to change it. I believe we should follow Miss Kitty's advice above. I believe everyone has an opinion. They are like a certain part of one's anatomy, everyone has one. I believe you are entitled to express your thoughts, facts, opinions, and I, mine. Finally, we obviously disagree on climate change. You prefer, it appears, to rely on books, treatises and lectures and movies from "experts" like Al Gore and I tend to rely on meteorological education and my experience. Either can be right or wrong but we should agree that we may express them freely and are privy to try and change another's stance to our point of view.