Testing the sand for Customary Use

Beach Fanatic

Jul 16, '18 · 9:21 PM24,884

My opinion! So let me get this straight...someone goes out of their way to leave their own backyard in Seagrove (surrounded by white sandy beaches) to drive to Vizcaya (2 days in a row) to sit on property already in dispute, to "test" taunt, provoke the homeowners there into calling the police and face possible arrest for trespassing? Wow, that's a special kind of stupid! Drawing lines in the sand? Really? Taking up time & valuable resources from the WCSO?

Sheriff Adkinson, you missed a prime opportunity! You put stupid people in jail all the time....you sir, missed your shot!

Replies

Beach Fanatic

Jul 19, '18 · 4:45 PM#52

This is for both you @FloridaBeachBum and @BlueMtnBeachVagrant...

We know of each other but I don't think I have ever met either of you. If I were to come to the beach and sit peacefully and quietly on the dry sand would I be escorted off your property for trespassing? If the answer is no...

If I came and brought my 10 by 10 tent, gas brill, boom box, big screen TV, a keg of coors light and invited 75 first year college students would I still be welcome?

The reason I'm asking is I think there should be a happy medium even though I realize you believe according to the law you don't have to negotiate your property.

If you sat where our family have enjoyed our property over the decades and we asked you to move or give us space; would you move or would you defy our request? It is an matter of respecting our private property rights. You want to act like a self righteous attorney and demand to sit wherever you want regardless of our rights; your chances are reduced to have our permission to occupy and enjoy our property that we pay property taxes on to the MHWL.

Beach Fanatic

Jul 19, '18 · 4:48 PM#53

I think I will just post this comment of mine in this thread too... "IMO..alot of this could have/would have been avoided if they would just require the property owners prove they own the property.

Walton County is free to pay for a MHWL survey to prove their and the State's landward MHWL public property boundary like they did on 2013.

Could it be that the surveys show that the MHWL is alot closer to the toe of the dune than they want people to know?"

Mean High Water Line - think about it for a minute.
On a clam day when has the highest tide elevation been near to the toe of the dune? Much less an average hide tide elevation above sea level over 18.6 years?
If you look at photos from the 1940s the beach is about where it is today - that includes after how many hurricanes? I'm not worried about hurricanes eroding my property in the long term or sea level raise in my long life time.

Edited Jul 19, '18 · 4:56 PM

Beach FanaticAuthor

Jul 19, '18 · 4:56 PM#54

If you sat where our family have enjoyed our property over the decades and we asked you to move or give us space; would you move or would you defy our request? It is an matter of respecting our private property rights. You want to act like a self righteous attorney and demand to sit wherever you want regardless of our rights; your chances are reduced to have our permission to occupy and enjoy our property that we pay property taxes on to the MHWL.

I am all about defying government BS.

If... in the case of the Uhlfelder video (you nor your family were actually on the beach) and I coped a squat and peacefully sat on the dry sand bothering no one, contemplating life and paradise would I be removed?

Beach Fanatic

Jul 19, '18 · 5:01 PM#55

I am all about defying government BS.

If... in the case of the Uhlfelder video (you nor your family were actually on the beach) and I coped a squat and peacefully sat on the dry sand bothering no one, contemplating life and paradise would I be removed?

Likely not. But if the Walton commissioners want to litigate for customary use and private property owners prevail - all bets are off. You will have 900+ parcel owners who will be not happy our Constitutional rights were not respected and we had to defend them in court over years and with our own money. Not tax payers money.

Beach Fanatic

Jul 19, '18 · 5:07 PM#56

Walton County is free to pay for a MHWL survey to prove their and the State's landward MHWL public property boundary like they did on 2013.

Mean High Water Line - think about it for a minute.
On a clam day when has the highest tide elevation been near to the toe of the dune? Much less an average hide tide elevation above sea level over 18.6 years?
If you look at photos from the 1940s the beach is about where it is today - that includes after how many hurricanes? I'm not worried about hurricanes eroding my property in the long term or sea level raise in my long life time.

Like I said..if I was laying claim to property without the benefit of a survey they would probably just laugh at me. Why, if the property is so valuable to beachfront property owners, would they not be willing to pay for a survey that proves it is theirs? You want the county and its taxpayers to pay to prove that you own something? Nah thats not how it works. Not having a legal description of your property is like not registering your new car. If it gets stolen, how are you going to prove it is yours??

Beach Crab

Jul 19, '18 · 9:05 PM#57

I feel like the most overlooked point in all of this has been.... People can buy beachfront property, but they don’t actually buy the beach. I’ve been searching property for the last several years in SRB. I guess I need to go back and read where you can buy the beach with the purchase of a beachfront home.

Beach Fanatic

Jul 19, '18 · 10:07 PM#58

And what law school did you attend ?

SoWal Guide

Jul 19, '18 · 11:24 PM#59

You left out private property owners. That's the problem. Respect private property rights. Stop the emotional pleas not based in facts. Read and understand the laws and regulations. Stop the deliberate misinformation and vilification of property owners who understand the facts better than most - even emotional irrational attorneys. Things will get better on the beach - don't and it won't.

Not all property owners who happen to own a Gulf front home claim to own the actual beach or wish to keep the sandy beach private for their own use. The Gulf front home owners I know and have talked to or heard from are also people who appreciate customary use of our beaches in South Walton FL. They are not interested in signs or calling the Sheriff.

Gulf front homeowners care about our community. They too are beach lovers. Who also raised their kids here. Who own businesses here. Who love this place who stand for customary use of our beaches. Because they stand for our community. Period.

There are us. But there are those who claim private rights to the beach and so here we are. It will be resolved.

All those who have an investment in the community want what's best for our beaches. They are worth preserving.

Sheriff officers will be placed in the middle of trying to keep the peace on certain beaches. Because Walton County has been singled out and targeted by a law. The governor's EO makes no sense. Why would he need to issue an order to keep public beach accesses open to the public? This was never an issue.

No one expected to have access to Beach access taken away. It isn't a partisan thing in many minds. It is a threat to our community and our way of life - as locals, visitors, business owners, homeowners, and families who choose to be here because of the natural beauty that surrounds South Walton.

The beach is a precious place to live, play, visit and preserve for all of us. Every inch of our beaches deserves to be held in preserve. To keep them clean, beautiful, and safe (vendor free would be a great goal too) so that they remain accessible to all of us.

Keep our beaches pristine. Let us educate our visitors on wildlife, leave no trace, and enforce beach rules and safety. Let us always meet up for beach cleanups throughout the year. Let's work to keep beaches everywhere open for everyone to enjoy. Always.

Beach Lover

Jul 20, '18 · 2:18 AM#601

When you write about the beach, I can really feel your love for it. But opening it up public without enough accesses, restrooms,parking and lots of enforcement is premature to me. We have been busting at the seams here for years. Except for the Deep Water Horizon time when all that false reporting said oil was spilling up onto our shores. Again, I worry that there is a lot of misinformation out there being touted as true. For example, the editorial saying our beaches are worthless and it is being taken as fact. When that is not true, BFO’s do pay private property tax on that land. I worry that the headlines WCC Warns Beaches Could Close to Public will affect tourism. Then these videos! Now, hang onto your socks, cause if you thought what I said the other day was mean spirited, wait til you read my adjectives for Mr. H. But, I’ll just use the sheriffs words instead, “I think there is a better means to get that result.”

Beach Lover

Jul 20, '18 · 2:19 AM#61

Sorry, I don’t know why that’s there twice and not at the end.

Beach Fanatic

Jul 20, '18 · 3:23 AM#62

If you sat where our family have enjoyed our property over the decades and we asked you to move or give us space; would you move or would you defy our request? It is an matter of respecting our private property rights. You want to act like a self righteous attorney and demand to sit wherever you want regardless of our rights; your chances are reduced to have our permission to occupy and enjoy our property that we pay property taxes on to the MHWL.

Kaydence,

Pretty much see it the same way. BUT.....

If you open that door, then the “public” will eventually assume sooner than later that they are entitled to the whole beach. And the associated problems then follow. And of of course if we don’t run them off, then that’s one of the conditions of customary use.

Oh yeah, besides taxes and all (not that taxes are necesarily a criteria required to own private property), another absolute issue is LIABILITY. Insurance policies cover one’s entire property, down to the MHWL.

Did the county include in their customary use ordinance that the property owner would be held totally harmless by the county should an injury occur on that property?

Edited Jul 20, '18 · 3:29 AM

Beach Fanatic

Jul 20, '18 · 3:59 AM#63

I am definitely including property owners who happen to own a Gulf front home - you see, most don't claim to own the actual beach.

Yeah maybe....on the Persian Gulf.
Just having a little fun.

Reminder. There are far more people who stand for customary use than not. When I explain what is happening to visitors, friends and family they react in total disbelief. No one ever expected to have access to beaches taken away for any reason. It isn't a partisan thing in their minds. It is a threat to our community

Now that’s something! I had no idea!!
Unbelievable, a popularity contest can trump (maybe I should use the word, supersede) the Constitution.

With thinking like that, no wonder we’re in this mess.

Edited Jul 20, '18 · 4:06 AM

Beach Fanatic

Jul 20, '18 · 6:58 AM#64

Like I said..if I was laying claim to property without the benefit of a survey they would probably just laugh at me. Why, if the property is so valuable to beachfront property owners, would they not be willing to pay for a survey that proves it is theirs? You want the county and its taxpayers to pay to prove that you own something? Nah thats not how it works. Not having a legal description of your property is like not registering your new car. If it gets stolen, how are you going to prove it is yours??

If the Sheriff requires signs to post the surveyed property boundaries - OK. Walton County's requirement. Then don't vilify property owners for doing what the Sheriff and Walton county requires ... oh I forgot the Walton commissioners prohibited property owners from placing signs marking their property boundaries at all times.
Or...
How about Walton mark their 8 miles of public beach boundaries and by default the remainder of the 899 parcels are private property. If the Sheriff is going to make up the rules and use the wet sand, private property owner don't need to survey their properties, unless you/Walton want to prove the public landward MHWL property boundary is landward of the wet sand or near the toe of the dune. But I'm not worried about that MHWL survey either.

Beach Fanatic

Jul 20, '18 · 7:23 AM#65

Walton County is free to pay for a MHWL survey to prove their and the State's landward MHWL public property boundary like they did on 2013.

Mean High Water Line - think about it for a minute.
On a clam day when has the highest tide elevation been near to the toe of the dune? Much less an average hide tide elevation above sea level over 18.6 years?
If you look at photos from the 1940s the beach is about where it is today - that includes after how many hurricanes? I'm not worried about hurricanes eroding my property in the long term or sea level raise in my long life time.

Your head is buried in the sand.

I've seen decades of storms. Seen how erosion is minimal in undeveloped areas in SoWal like to the west of state parks. Read about coastal geography and how seawalls and such hasten erosion, I've walked many miles of beaches far to the east and west of SoWal. We got our wonderful beaches from millions of years of erosion from the Smoky mountains. That ain't happening any more. The state of Georgia has cut off our water and any future sand. Our beaches are moving west and will disappear. It is happening very fast without storms. Were you here in 2005? A couple of years like that and your beach will look like Carabelle.

Beach Fanatic

Jul 20, '18 · 7:23 AM#66

The entire wet sand/dry sand wordage is ridiculous. Whoever came up with that needs to be made to read the entire 177 Chapter of Florida Statues over and over again. As I said before, the county has recently purchased beachfront parcels and I am sure they were required to get that "legal description" of that property. I even said that the TDC could fund surveys on ALL public accesses and use those as a general sight line (since you can just about see from one to the next)for the SO to be able to tell (approximately) where the MHWL is. It would be alot better than NO ONE having any idea where it is. As for the signage on the beaches goes none of the signs that are posted are compliant with the wording of those pesky Florida statutes on property posting. The statute (810.09) those signs cite that deal with Burglary and Trespass clearly state...
" 2.a. Conspicuous no trespassing notice is painted on trees or posts on the property, provided that the notice is:
(I) Painted in an international orange color and displaying the stenciled words “No Trespassing” in letters no less than 2 inches high and 1 inch wide either vertically or horizontally;"

Beach Fanatic

Jul 20, '18 · 7:43 AM#67

Teresa, you have good intentions. I don't think you understand the Constitution or the law. [Comments in brackets]

Not all property owners who happen to own a Gulf front home claim to own the actual beach or wish to keep the sandy beach private for their own use. [Good for those owners. They have the right to give permission to anyone they choose to access or occupy their property.] The Gulf front home owners I know and have talked to or heard from are also people who appreciate customary use [I probably know more beachfront owners than you and I'd estimate that's a small percentage of the 900+ parcel owners who Walton pay property taxes but that is their right as well. ] of our beaches in South Walton FL. They are not interested in signs or calling the Sheriff [Nor are most property owners - IF our property rights are respected].

Gulf front homeowners ... Who love this place who stand for customary use of our beaches. Because they stand for our community. Period. [Because you believe it does not mean you are correct. Because a beachfront owner does not "stand for customary use" does not mean they don't stand for "our community" as you imply. They stand for the Constitution and Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness under the rule of law that protects minorities from mob rule.]

But there are those who claim private rights to the beach and so here we are. It will be resolved. [Alternatively, there are those who claim property rights to the private beach they do NOT have without consideration for the Constitution or due process ... and here we are.]

All those who have an investment in the community want what's best for our beaches. They are worth preserving. [All those that have an investment in the property they paid for and pay taxes on to the MHWL want what's best for their beaches and all beaches as well. Constitutional rights are worth preserving.]

Sheriff officers will be placed in the middle of trying to keep the peace on certain beaches. Because Walton County has been singled out and targeted by a law. [Because Walton politicians declared by police power that private property rights were invalid WITHOUT due process FIRST. No other county has done that and the FL legislature had to correct Walton's, and any other county, failure to property owner Constitutional due process BEFORE taking property rights they have today.] The governor's EO makes no sense. Why would he need to issue an order to keep public beach accesses open to the public? This was never an issue. [Agree. Except as a political maneuver. Have you read the EO? What does the EO say about what beaches the Governor is assuring access to? All beaches? The beach? Private beaches? PUBLIC beaches?]

No one expected to have access to Beach access taken away. It isn't a partisan thing in many minds. It is a threat to our community and our way of life - as locals, visitors, business owners, homeowners, and families who choose to be here because of the natural beauty that surrounds South Walton. [You can thank the Walton commissioners and the TDC for creating the myth and expectation over the decades that 75% of Walton beaches are not private beaches that property owners graciously shared with the public until the demand exceed the public beach supply and the "hooligans" (Sheriff's word) abused property owner's right to private enjoyment of their property by the tourist and locals abuse of that grace. If you use private beachfront property - you can not be disrespectful to the owner, relieve yourself there or in the water, get drunk and disorderly, smoke, have unsupervised children, dogs, setup tents, ...]

Every inch of our beaches deserves to be held in preserve. To keep them clean, beautiful, and safe (vendor free would be a great goal too) so that they remain accessible to all of us. [Then you buy the property at fair market value and do with it how you wish. Until then respect the Constitutional property rights owners have had and have today.]

Keep our beaches pristine. Let us educate our visitors on wildlife, leave no trace, and enforce beach rules and safety. Let's work to keep [public] beaches everywhere open for everyone to enjoy [and respect private property rights]. Always.

Edited Jul 20, '18 · 8:11 AM

Beach Fanatic

Jul 20, '18 · 7:45 AM#68

Your head is buried in the sand.

I've seen decades of storms. Seen how erosion is minimal in undeveloped areas in SoWal like to the west of state parks. Read about coastal geography and how seawalls and such hasten erosion, I've walked many miles of beaches far to the east and west of SoWal. We got our wonderful beaches from millions of years of erosion from the Smoky mountains. That ain't happening any more. The state of Georgia has cut off our water and any future sand. Our beaches are moving west and will disappear. It is happening very fast without storms. Were you here in 2005? A couple of years like that and your beach will look like Carabelle.

Prove it. Don't give opinions. Lets see facts. Look at the photos from the 1940's and show how the 26 miles of shore line are different from today's shore line.
Were you here in 1975 when Eloise went through? Our beach shoreline property has recovered within a few years each time. Dunes have recovered well with sand fencing too. Now if I can just keep the ignorant tourist and disrespectful locals off the dunes.

Edited Jul 20, '18 · 7:56 AM

Beach Fanatic

Jul 20, '18 · 8:02 AM#69

The entire wet sand/dry sand wordage is ridiculous. Whoever came up with that needs to be made to read the entire 177 Chapter of Florida Statues over and over again. As I said before, the county has recently purchased beachfront parcels and I am sure they were required to get that "legal description" of that property. I even said that the TDC could fund surveys on ALL public accesses and use those as a general sight line (since you can just about see from one to the next)for the SO to be able to tell (approximately) where the MHWL is. It would be alot better than NO ONE having any idea where it is. As for the signage on the beaches goes none of the signs that are posted are compliant with the wording of those pesky Florida statutes on property posting. The statute (810.09) those signs cite that deal with Burglary and Trespass clearly state...
" 2.a. Conspicuous no trespassing notice is painted on trees or posts on the property, provided that the notice is:
(I) Painted in an international orange color and displaying the stenciled words “No Trespassing” in letters no less than 2 inches high and 1 inch wide either vertically or horizontally;"

Read statue 810.011. Only applies to property greater than 5 acres or without a residential dwelling on it.

Beach Fanatic

Jul 20, '18 · 8:08 AM#70

Prove it. Don't give opinions. Lets see facts. Look at the photos from the 1940's and show how the 26 miles of shore line are different from today's shore line.
Were you here in 1975 when Eloise went through? Our beach shoreline property has recovered within a few years each time. Dunes have recovered well with sand fencing too. Now if I can just keep the ignorant tourist and disrespectful locals off the dunes.

The shoreline in the western end of SoWal where renourishment was done looks the same as it did 50 years ago. But anywhere else, especially areas like Blue Mountain Beach and many other areas are nearly gone compared to the past. Don't you own a townhouse in BMB that became uninhabitable because it almost crumbled into the Gulf?

Alys Beach early plan before 2005 had beachfront setbacks pretty narrow. 2005 happened and they moved all the construction back. They made less money but saw what a disaster it would have been to allow building too close to the water like 90% of other beachfront development in SoWal. Did you see the homes and condos falling on to the beach in 2005? There are photos on this site.

Every storms since 2005 (all have luckily just brushed by) have waves hitting the toe of the dunes. Just watch the beachcams. Only an idiot would deny that the next big storm is going to destroy the dunes and most of the homes on them. I've seen tons of pictures on this site that make it clear. Just search and see and compare to Google earth today. It ain't hard to see if your head is not buried in the sand.

View attachment 71662

Beach Fanatic

Jul 20, '18 · 8:18 AM#71

Only an idiot would deny that the next big storm is going to destroy the dunes and most of the homes on them. I've seen tons of pictures on this site that make it clear. Just search and see and compare to Google earth today. It ain't hard to see if your head is not buried in the sand.

Read my post again. Show where the shore line is different. Shore line is where the sand meet the Gulf.

Beach Fanatic

Jul 20, '18 · 8:51 AM#72

Once again ...some aerial photo of the beaches from years past to beaches now are NOT a legal description of a property. You say "Prove it" by looking at pictures..I say "prove it" by producing a legal document.

Beach Fanatic

Jul 20, '18 · 9:35 AM#73

Read my post again. Show where the shore line is different. Shore line is where the sand meet the Gulf.

Yes I understand what a shoreline is. It's location from the dune line is directly related to the amount of pounding the dunes will take. More relevant is the relative height of the sand compared to years past. I saw all of the surveys done that showed why renourishment is necessary. The beach level is much lower and in a critical state. That you think it is a ploy to steal your property is a more idiocy AND paranoia.

Beach Lover

Jul 20, '18 · 9:55 AM#74

Yeah maybe....on the Persian Gulf.
Just having a little fun.

Now that’s something! I had no idea!!
Unbelievable, a popularity contest can trump (maybe I should use the word, supersede) the Constitution.

With thinking like that, no wonder we’re in this mess.

Thinking?

Beach Lover

Jul 20, '18 · 12:54 PM#75

If the Sheriff requires signs to post the surveyed property boundaries - OK. Walton County's requirement. Then don't vilify property owners for doing what the Sheriff and Walton county requires ... oh I forgot the Walton commissioners prohibited property owners from placing signs marking their property boundaries at all times.
Or...
How about Walton mark their 8 miles of public beach boundaries and by default the remainder of the 899 parcels are private property. If the Sheriff is going to make up the rules and use the wet sand, private property owner don't need to survey their properties, unless you/Walton want to prove the public landward MHWL property boundary is landward of the wet sand or near the toe of the dune. But I'm not worried about that MHWL survey either.

The WCSO SOP from 2015 started this sign issue because it was part of his trespassing requirements. Also, each beach has several surveys, registered, sealed in envelope...I can’t remember them by name but they’re in there

Beach Lover

Jul 20, '18 · 1:36 PM#766

From Dothan street to pelayo street in sea grove is gulf shore manor beach dedicated to the homeowners of gulf shore manor. With a court order. So far as a group we have stayed out of it for now. There's a public beach song at Santa Clara next to county parking. Maybe we should shut down all of nature walk and hub owners from coming to beach. Or set up daily charge. Then we all can get everybody with a bad taste about Walton county and maybe property prices will lower and people will quit coming .i guess county parking lot could just before people walking on the beach.