Torture in Iraq

[6thGen]

I disagree with your reasoning for it being morally correct, because they were warned. Yes, it probably saved many other lives, by dropping the bomb, than it actually killed, but tell that to the family members of those who innocently died. Using your reasoning, I guess Al Quida could also say that we were warned, but, IMO, that wouldn't make it right.

As for soldier and civilian being nearly indidstinguishable, if our enemy was invading our country, I think there would be many civilians taking up arms and wearing camo, and driving HUMMERS, making them nearly indistinguishable from the military. ;-)

I worded that poorly. I don?t believe that warning the Japanese made it morally correct, but I believe it mitigates what is morally lacking rather than justifies it. The primary moral reason mitigating the act was the fact that the targets did have military significance and secondary because Japan was engaged in total war. As scooterbug said, the fact that it is still debated to this day shows that as a culture we understand the significance and impact of the decision. Also, the fact that we look at it as wrong as a default position until proven acceptable emphasizes the difference between that and something like bombing civilian markets.

Also, I?m not arguing that dropping the bombs was morally acceptable because it saved lives, but I?m listing that as something to list in the pro category after the decision has been made based on something that fits within the core beliefs of what allows us to at least get some sleep at night.

 

[Beemn]

In world war 2 both the Germans and the Japanese civilian population was considered part of the enemies war machine. The Bombing of Germany is legendary. The enemy did the same. In the fights since, only Korea and Desert Storm were conventional. Non of the other armies could stand up to ours.....so they don't. They fight the way they can. In the mind of an Iraqi, I doubt they see any difference in suicide bombing and dropping a bomb which levels a neighborhood and kills scores of civilians to get one bad guy!

 

[scooterbug44]

I think they view the civilian population as part of the enemy - don't they usually suicide bomb an area based on its affiliation? Like Shias bomb ****te marketplaces etc.

 

[scooterbug44]

The asterisks aren't mine! They're a default - I'll try an apostrophe next time!

 

[Allifunn]

The asterisks aren't mine! They're a default - I'll try an apostrophe next time!

 

[Bob]

So nothing of response to anything I said? First off, I'll sum up our two posts.

6thGen - "I believe that some things are always wrong."
Chickpea - "You are poorly educated and I'm fortunate that I don't know anyone like you."

First, I'd put my resume, from preschool to postgraduate education and my career since, up against anyone's. But that's not the point. I recognize that an education is not an end in itself, rather a means to an end.

Real quick, on this quote, "nothing good, progressive or positive has ever been accomplished with the harshness and simplistic black and white views you have of world politics, foreign affairs and lack of compassion you so proudly flout." You want to ask Reagan about that?

I've stated my position and I'll turn it over to you. When is targeting innocent civilians fair game? What nuance allows for converting others to their religion by the sword? I'm anxiously awaiting your travels and education to give me insight into that. I seriously want to hear this nuance. I'm open minded and all ears.

Ronnie didn't put the hammer down in Lebanon because the locals had nothing to do with the bombing. Pretty wise, don't you think 6thGen, not to turn a country inside out and kill innocents for the actions of others. Sound familiar? 100,000 dead Iraqis, their leader lynched, 3000+ dead U.S. troops for what reason? Bin Laden was where? Hello? Iraq is in chaos because we pulled the OK Corral move. Sheriff GW and the miltary- industrial posse.

 

[30A Skunkape]

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?:breakcomp:

 

[Chickpea]

Originally Posted by 6thGen


I've stated my position and I'll turn it over to you. When is targeting innocent civilians fair game? What nuance allows for converting others to their religion by the sword? I'm anxiously awaiting your travels and education to give me insight into that. I seriously want to hear this nuance. I'm open minded and all ears.

Sigh..... I am going to put this is simply as I can. I have actually NEVER stated that targeting innocent civilians is fair game - what I HAVE said however is that one needs to try and understand why one would ever resort to such violence, to try dig up the root cause of this hatred, before hoping to change a behavior. Now one can simplistically look at a suicide bomber's tactics and call it cowardly (and it is) and hateful (and it is) OR one can attempt to try lessen the anger and hatred felt towards the enemy, whoever that might be.

I am, as politely as I can, going to refrain from trying to educate you on the politics of the middle east (there is plenty of available literature that will do it far better than I can) or in the benefits and exposure one gets in travel and IMMERSION in other cultures and religions (and apologies in advance if I offend you but I continue to remain utterly unconvinced by your claims of travel because like I have said one rarely meets people with views as starkly primitive as yours) - I may be wrong, but I seriously doubt it). I am exhausted by your threads and frankly appalled (but then again, not really!) at how you and so many others will forever justify this particular war even if the initial reasons for doing so are a constantly moving target and being re-defined weekly (how convenient that must be!).

But although you claim you are all ears, allow me to be skeptical. I have actually now read a lot of your posts and have some understanding as to how you view the world (and I assume you have reached similar conclusions about me and I am not being facetious here), and IMO there is little interest and no willingness, as far as I can tell in trying to engage the complex topics. It is seemingly easier for you to pull a blanket over it, plug your ears and yell as loudly as you can that you don't want to hear it and you are so much stronger anyways!!

As to the initial topic of this thread, I personally am as disgusted by the US's actions as I am by the guerillas fighting the war - the tragedy on all sides is painful and the losses tragic and we will be feeling the repurcussions of this unnecessary war for generations.

6th gen and I do mean this respectfully: let's please try avoid/refrain from now on from addressing each other's points - we talk past each other and are just so very far apart in our reasoning and ways of thinking. The analogy to me is like a blind date or meeting at a party - it would take us a total of a couple of minutes before we realized that we had very little in common and would both be looking for excuses to get the hell of out of each other's company. Time is now just too precious. I would rather continue reading the opinions on these threads and not taking the bait (although I know it is unintentional on your part).

Thanks - over and out from me!

 

[Miss Kitty]

Okay...please be kind to little ol' me, but I have a question. Let's say we (USA) take all our troops home from the Middle East...will the homicidal bombing stop? Or, will the civil war just continue and we can watch from the comfort of our homes? Oh, take Israel and Palestine out of that equation...if that is possible.

 

[GoodWitch58]

I think the answer to that question is that no one really knows for sure. However, I do believe our people are now much more venerable to attack because they are out in the streets/villages/cities more than before. And they are easy targets because, unlike the enemy, they wear uniforms identifying them as US military.
.
How much worse could it get for our people. Not much, I think.

Why not move them out to Kuwait and see what happens? We could always go back in if we were threatened in any way.

The real problem here is that the civilian leadership in the Pentagon has never had a plan and now they are trying to lay the whole strategy at Gen. P's feet. He is, after all a military person who carries out the orders of his commanders in Washington.

Our president has done a huge disservice to our military men and women and to our entire country. The Congress hasn't done any better. I fear our Democracy is truly at a tipping point.

This war was sold to the American citizenry under false pretenses--we invaded a country who had done nothing to us; without a plan; without an understanding of the political situation there; and in the meantime, the people who perpertrated the attacks on 911 and the leader of the that terror goes on with his devious planning.

It is insanity.