Why we should Care?

[Smiling JOe]

With all due respect, I think you're missing the point I was making. The LAND under my home will not disappear in a flood even though yes I'll concede there is some finite possibility. If we do have the "mother of all storms" hit us, your prediction may come true regarding my home on the river.

However Dennis was NOT the "mother of all storms". Will you at least acknowledge that? Also will you at least acknowledge my statement that in terms of erosion, Dennis was TEN times worse than Ivan?

If you fear the "mother of all storms" might hit me in GA what about coastal FL? Why do you hang around?

SJ, I'm not an idiot (OK...I can at least reason things out) . Sometimes I feel we're forgetting what we're discussing. It was just a sidestreet of BobbyJ's dialogue where he mentioned something about selling gulf front property only with PROPER DISCLOSURE. AGAIN...if you're insinuating that I should have known that a Dennis would cause 20 feet of erosion, you are wrong, plain and simple. (sj writes - And for people like you, attornies make us use disclosures.)

Am I "ignorant" for not knowing this? Perhaps. But I'm more informed than the average bear. Disclosures are suppose to be aimed at everone.

My point is, AGAIN, that I did not know. The seller did not know, The agent did not know. Therefore it was not disclosed. Don't read too much more into it.

The rest of your logic is again "crystal clear with hindsight" regarding the beach.

So based on your "mother of all disaster" scenarios we should all move to...
Kansas? No, tornadoes
California? No, earthquakes
New Orleans? No
New York? No, terrorists
South Georgia? No, floods
Colorado? No, landslides
Arizona? No, probably run out of water
Florida? No, hurricanes, tsunamis, west nile virus, tourists, developers

What the hell are any of us doing in Florida?

So your answer is A.

Good choice. Maybe bad for business, but good choice.

While I do have fears, none of them involves the Chat River taking away your home. You want me to acknowledge that Dennis wasn't a big storm. Okay. It wasn't. Nor did it hit SoWal. Ivan took care of carrying away much sand, setting up the other storms in 05 to be even more devistating as for erosion. Add to that, the fact that several of the storms passed through at high tide, and you get massive, continuous erosion. Happy now?

The day you see me put business before life, please go ahead and shoot me. I would rather do the right thing, than have a "good" (I guess that means greedy and profitable) business anyday.

In summary, I think we should think beyond the recent past (100years) to educate ourselves. Remember, one time, humans were not on the Earth, and one day in the future, we will return to that state. I live wherever I go. I have learned to adapt to some degree, in each place I go, never having to fear loss of such things as material possessions. I can live in the woods just fine. ;-) If SoWal was wiped out by a storm, I would move on. Maybe that means stay here and move on with life, or maybe that means pack up ship and seek life elsewhere. I will deal with that when the time comes. In the mean time, here I am.

 

[Smiling JOe]

Good choice again, otherwise you'd lose your @ss in a lawsuit if you knew and didn't disclose it.

One other point, if a seller isn't willing to be truthful, I will absolutely refuse to do business with them. If they won't be truthful to the buyers, why would I expect them to be truthful with me? If they were not truthful to me and I was unaware of something which needed to be disclosed due to the sellers' lies, I would probably not be liable (even though I would have some legal fees), however, I would rather avoid that situation altogether by not taking on that potential customer.

 

[Bobby J]

Bmbv,

I have responded and deleted my comments to you three times. I can not attack your position but want to. I feel like you are operating out of alot of fear. I would probably be doing the same thing if I was in your situation.

The dilema you have brought forth to me is, "Would I take a listing with a Seawall"? Originally I thought with all the disclosures in place I would but now I do not know if I would. I have enough of my own headaches without taken on other peoples problems. Plus, I have some ethical issues here. Anyway, I am sorry you are in the situation you are in with the sea walls. I hope it all works out for you. Anyway, Brody calls!

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

Bmbv,

I have responded and deleted my comments to you three times. I can not attack your position but want to. I feel like you are operating out of alot of fear. I would probably be doing the same thing if I was in your situation.

The dilema you have brought forth to me is, "Would I take a listing with a Seawall"? Originally I thought with all the disclosures in place I would but now I do not know if I would. I have enough of my own headaches without taken on other peoples problems. Plus, I have some ethical issues here. Anyway, I am sorry you are in the situation you are in with the sea walls. I hope it all works out for you. Anyway, Brody calls!

First hurricanes...

Then all the prejudices regarding protecting your property...

And now, even if I WAS in FEAR (which I'm not - thanks for caring), I won't be able to find a real estate agent to sell my property in this hot real estate market because they have their own headaches.

It's just keeps getting tougher and tougher to be a gulf front property owner.;-)

From your earlier post...

BTW, I have gulf front listings but they have no Sea Walls.

Are you going to disclose the erosional rate that occured during Dennis?

 

[Smiling JOe]

First hurricanes...

Then all the prejudices regarding protecting your property...

And now, even if I WAS in FEAR (which I'm not - thanks for caring), I won't be able to find a real estate agent to sell my property in this hot real estate market because they have their own headaches.

It's just keeps getting tougher and tougher to be a gulf front property owner.;-)

From your earlier post...
Are you going to disclose the erosional rate that occured during Dennis?

I am sure there are plenty of agents who don't care about no stinkin' seawalls, so you should have plenty of agents from whom to choose as your listing agent. Also, just because they take your listing, that doesn't mean that they don't care about the beaches. ;-)

 

[Bobby J]

First hurricanes...

Then all the prejudices regarding protecting your property...

And now, even if I WAS in FEAR (which I'm not - thanks for caring), I won't be able to find a real estate agent to sell my property in this hot real estate market because they have their own headaches.

It's just keeps getting tougher and tougher to be a gulf front property owner.;-)

From your earlier post...
Are you going to disclose the erosional rate that occured during Dennis?

You will have no problems getting really good agents to take your property. I am one of many agents. I am also many other things besides a real estate agent. My belief about Sea walls comes from a group I belong to call Surfrider. Surfrider Foundation is a non-profit environmental organization dedicated to the protection and enjoyment of the world's oceans, waves and beaches for all people, through conservation, activism, research and education. Surfrider has a history of information regarding Sea Walls. They have followed them and researched them for years. They are simply not good. I understand your concern about your property. This is a very tough place to be. It still does not change the documented research on Sea Walls. Period. A national journalist recently stated SoWAl armored thier beaches like a third world country. We operated and permitted in total chaos and fear.

I ran into a guy recently that was letting his washer machine water run into a local canal. He feels that because he lets it out on his land it is ok and not anyones business. We all know the water is bad for the canals and the environment. This sea wall dilema reminds me of this guy. The problem of the washer machine water in the canals is well documented just like Sea Walls. While the sea wall on your property may not be a "problem" on your property what about the various types of erosion it causes on "our" beaches? I also would like to be clear on something: I feel for your situation and am trying to better understand what we all should do.

I also understand that washer water in the canal does not threaten anyones home as erosion does but I just wanted to note the comparison.

The fear comment comes from my belief that we all have fears about our beaches, our land, and our finances because of the current real estate climate. You have quite an investment if you own property on the beach. You would have to have fears

Am I going to disclose the erosional rate? "It comes up a long time before I have to disclose it";-)

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

I am sure there are plenty of agents who don't care about no stinkin' seawalls, so you should have plenty of agents from whom to choose as your listing agent. Also, just because they take your listing, that doesn't mean that they don't care about the beaches. ;-)

Absolutely FAIR and VALID! Thanks.

 

[BlueMtnBeachVagrant]

...Surfrider has a history of information regarding Sea Walls. They have followed them and researched them for years. They are simply not good. I understand your concern about your property. This is a very tough place to be.

Bobby....understood. I never said "Sea Walls" are GOOD. They were not installed in anticipation of Dennis because we think they are "GOOD". They were installed after Dennis out of a need to protect. Let's leave that aspect out of all this.

A national journalist recently stated SoWAl armored thier beaches like a third world country. We operated and permitted in total chaos and fear.

Can't resist.... see the following for what I feel about "national journalists" and their objective articles.
[ame="http://www.sowal.com/bb/showpost.php?p=91490&postcount=36"]SoWal Beaches Forum - View Single Post - SEAWALLS - Audio/Photo Presentation[/ame]

By the way, we personally had one of our best rental seasons with repeat bookings for next year. Guess people like 3rd world countries.

I ran into a guy recently that was letting his washer machine water run into a local canal. He feels that because he lets it out on his land it is ok and not anyones business. We all know the water is bad for the canals and the environment. This sea wall dilema reminds me of this guy. The problem of the washer machine water in the canals is well documented just like Sea Walls.

Sorry Bobby, I think this is by far your weakest "argument"...your comparing intentional active pollution to my retaining wall. I see your point but it's very weak none the less.

POLLUTION = ILLEGAL
RETAINING WALL = NOT ILLEGAL

BTW, did you turn him in to DEP or start a thread on this issue?:nono1: ;-)

While the sea wall on your property may not be a "problem" on your property what about the various types of erosion it causes on "our" beaches?

Speaking of disclosure...are you going to disclose that many of the beaches that you describe as "our beaches" in our area are actually private?

I also would like to be clear on something: I feel for your situation and am trying to better understand what we all should do. I also understand that washer water in the canal does not threaten anyones home as erosion does but I just wanted to note the comparison.

If you truly feel for our situation, I'm not sure you would have started this thread in the first place. That is, as I've said before, this retaining wall subject has been discussed so much that many of us could have joined the "BLUE MAN GROUP" and not have to wear make-up. :roll: Your rehashing of the same "old stuff" simply, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, was aimed at placing many gulf front owners in a less than favorable light to say the least, again. But that's your choice and this is my opinion.

Am I going to disclose the erosional rate? "It comes up a long time before I have to disclose it";-)

I guess that means since it probably automatically comes up in the course of conversation, that you don't have to disclose it in writing? You're a little elusive here for my feeble mind.;-)



Bobby, I don't have any problems with who you are or your idealisms... not that you need my "approval".;-) Idealisms are the root force behind change...not always good BTW.

Just grant me the fact that anyone who completely denies any complicity with the retaining wall issues is probably not being forthcoming....

I've said it before and I'll say it again, those early beach "pioneers" that simply built their homes here 50 or 60 years ago did so for the love of the beach...not because they wished any harm to it. There was NOTHING down here then. Their actions eventually lead to the development of "our area" where MANY PEOPLE CURRENTLY BENEFIT ECONOMICALLY from it's existence INCLUDING real estate agents, restaurant owners, developers, contractors, government tax base, etc, etc, etc.

Simply, I believe you and your peers fall into that category as well (as if you couldn't already sense my beliefs ).

Were errors made in hindsight? Certainly. To expect us to standby and do nothing in the meantime because of one's idealisms is simply idealistic and not realistic.

 

[Smiling JOe]

...

I guess that means since it probably automatically comes up in the course of conversation, that you don't have to disclose it in writing? You're a little elusive here for my feeble mind.;-)


...

Were errors made in hindsight? Certainly. To expect us to standby and do nothing in the meantime because of one's idealisms is simply idealistic and not realistic.

Wrong about not having to disclose it. As of 2006, the written CCCL Disclosure needs to be included in every contract for property which falls in that area on the maps.

I am anxious to hear what errors you now know in hindsight about seawalls that you didn't know prior to installing them.

 

[Bob]

BMBV," I, me, my," seem to be your favorite words. OK?